krupicka
Double Eagle Member
There are different approaches to this, but the outcry will be that the sky is falling if the RC pushes any of them.
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Marshals and officials should not be making calls on players.....ever.
There are different approaches to this, but the outcry will be that the sky is falling if the RC pushes any of them.
There are different approaches to this, but the outcry will be that the sky is falling if the RC pushes any of them.
Everybody except the players who jump/step putt. :|Marshals and officials should not be making calls on players.....ever. There is NO way to call the foul in real time. This is still a non issue. The resolution is simply no going beyond your lie. Everybody on board? opcorn:
Marshals and officials should not be making calls on players.....ever. There is NO way to call the foul in real time. This is still a non issue. The resolution is simply no going beyond your lie. Everybody on board? opcorn:
Why even bother having marshals and tournament officials (and why go to the trouble and expense of having them at events) if they are not making calls, particularly since even players who do make calls admit that they will defer to marshals/tournament officials to make calls if/when they are present?
So? If the PDGA is correct in its belief that tournament competition will continue to grow at a pace where demand outstrips supply, the whiners will either adapt to the new rule or quit (in which case, good riddance, and be careful the door hit your *** on the way out) and be replaced by new players who aren't trying to game the rules.
It looks HIGHLY suspect to me, but I can't say hed had a supporting point in front of his lie when he released. Complete agree with 3P here. If you can't tell when you slo-mo it, how can you possibly make the call at the time?I'm also not 100% sure that it' not a stance violation. If you slow down video and can't tell, how are you supposed to call that live? Especially since we are not actually trained on where to be looking and how to tell that live. Basically you have a rule we are totally unprepared to enforce during competition.
Everybody except the players who jump/step putt. :|
Oh, I didn't mean make everything C1 rules. The idea was to move C1 from 10 Meters to 20 Meters, basically make everything that is now a C2 putt follow the current C1 rules. You could still jump/step putt, but now you are 65' instead of 32' and your chances are significantly slimmer. So the rules outside C2 wouldn't change; you could follow through on drive and such. There are advocates of 100% stand and deliver that would outlaw going past your lie anywhere, but I'm not that crazy.I'm not so sure about that. If players weren't allowed to go beyond their lie until they demonstrated balance (i.e. the rule within the circle simply because "The Rule" ...for the entire round)...
Wouldn't that preclude what most people do as a "follow through" on their long shots?
This is not how the game works. Player violations are the responsibility of the player themselves and cardmates. Shifting the responsibility to others, is not resolving the problem. It is a rules violation to not call a foot fault. If an official makes the call, he then calls the entire card on a violation.
Oh, I didn't mean make everything C1 rules. The idea was to move C1 from 10 Meters to 20 Meters, basically make everything that is now a C2 putt follow the current C1 rules. You could still jump/step putt, but now you are 65' instead of 32' and your chances are significantly slimmer. So the rules outside C2 wouldn't change; you could follow through on drive and such. There are advocates of 100% stand and deliver that would outlaw going past your lie anywhere, but I'm not that crazy.
Making C1 20 meters is something that practically would be hard to do for leagues and local play (65' is a looong way to be eyeballing a distance from) but you could to it for big events where they could mark a circle. That would keep a controversial jump/step putt from deciding an event that has a lot of eyes on it. It's not a perfect solution by any means, but it's...something.
Marshals and officials should not be making calls on players.....ever. There is NO way to call the foul in real time. This is still a non issue. The resolution is simply no going beyond your lie. Everybody on board? opcorn:
In a 1-v-1 playoff scenario it makes TOTAL sense for a marshal or other official being capable of stepping in as the "third" to second any violations.This is not how the game works. Player violations are the responsibility of the player themselves and cardmates. Shifting the responsibility to others, is not resolving the problem. It is a rules violation to not call a foot fault. If an official makes the call, he then calls the entire card on a violation.
Marshals and officials are stewards of safety and responsible for competition manual enforcement. Player violations are on the players. Start calling violations.
I officially feel safe saying youre not Harold Duvall.There are advocates of 100% stand and deliver that would outlaw going past your lie anywhere, but I'm not that crazy.
And the problem with that is ...?
In an ideal world, yes, players would call violations. The reality on the ground is that self-officiating is NOT working and hasn't worked for decades: witness the fact that (A) once again there's controversy over the legality of a step/jump putt at a Major, and )B) a high profile pro who was serving on the PDGA board at the time stated openly that he would never call a foot fault on another player but would second a call if someone else made it.
Shifting the responsibility from players to marshals/TOs may not resolve the problem of players abdicating their responsibility to make calls, but empowering them to make calls at Majors and Pro Tour events can and will resolve the problem of at least some egregious violations not being called, particularly if the official levies courtesy violations on the rest of the card for failing to make the call themselves.
I'm somewhat alarmed that it was ever in question. I mean, he was the guy who was a big fan of using a Wolf for rollers. Despite everything he had done for disc golf, that one fact makes him my mortal enemy. :|I officially feel safe saying youre not Harold Duvall.
I think the thing missing here is how fast that happens and how hard it is to see.This is not how the game works. Player violations are the responsibility of the player themselves and cardmates. Shifting the responsibility to others, is not resolving the problem. It is a rules violation to not call a foot fault. If an official makes the call, he then calls the entire card on a violation.
Marshals and officials are stewards of safety and responsible for competition manual enforcement. Player violations are on the players. Start calling violations.
I think the thing missing here is how fast that happens and how hard it is to see.
Think about actual officials. Umpires, referees...these guys make calls for a living right? How do they do it? They get in position. They have training on what to be looking at and what to be listening for. When the play happens, they are in the right spot and looking at the right thing.
So when everyone approaches and people start to putt, where do you go? If you can get to your disc and be out of the line of sight, you go there. If you are going to be in the way, you stand behind the thrower. NOBODY is in position to make the call on a foot fault. Hell, I don't know where an official would stand and what they would watch. I've been a certified official, and I have no idea how to approach that situation in an umpire/referee mindset to make a call. I'm just a guy waiting on my turn to putt. Then something happens BANG/BANG...did the disc leave his hand before his foot hit the ground? Uh...I'm not sure, it happened really fast.
There is no fix to that in our current situation. You are always going to have people putting, and the responsibility to call them on rules violations in the hands of people who are not trained on what to look for, not in position to see what is happening and mostly thinking about what they have to do to sink their own putt. Those bang/bang things are not going to get called ever; no one in real time is going to be 100% confident in what they just saw.
If you stick an official on the card with the training to know where to stand and what to look for, and that guy makes a call? Great. Calling a courtesy violation on the players who are not trained and don't know where to stand and what to watch for because they didn't see it? That's pretty overboard.