Abandon lost disc throw and provisional?

[dmoore1998]

Well, I have to disagree with this. In this particular case, the disc hit a tree near the OB line. So, although there was a distinct possibility that the disc went OB, there was also the possibility that it hadn't. A provisional was thrown from the drop zone to save time. Then we couldn't find the first disc.

I do think that you have to choose whether to throw a provisional or abandon the throw. But I can definitely see the argument that, because the provisional is really just a courtesy to everyone, that if the purpose of the provisional is made moot (potential OB in this case), then the first throw could be abandoned. I guess my technical question would be whether the "or" in the rule is necessarily inclusive or whether the player can limit the purpose of the provisional to his/her intended purpose, i.e., to only an OB disc and not a lost disc if the status is not readily determinable from the tee.

One potential complicating factor in this case is that if the disc was lost and not presumed OB, then the next throw should be from the tee anyway. The drop zone is for OB throws, not lost ones. But, if the call is to abandon the throw instead of declaring it lost and re-teeing, would that change the analysis. I can see where abandoning the first throw could also be a courtesy to keep the group from having to continue searching for a disc and waste more time.

If you hadn't found the disc, and the player said "it must have gone OB" and played the hole onward from the provisional...would you have been ok with that given everything else remaining the same?

 

[_MTL_]

It really wouldn't be an ace run. Every abandoned throw is a one stroke penalty, so if you throw it in after abandoning the throw, it's a three. Doesn't matter where you are throwing from....it's still your second throw with a one stroke penalty.

I've had player's think abandoning the throw is like a mulligan....it doesn't count. But that isn't true...the throw that was abandoned did count. It's just that you aren't playing from there with your next throw.

In the situation given, the player may have abandoned their throw because they believe it is OB (or lost) and don't want to spend time looking for it.

Misunderstanding what I'm saying.

My point is that re-throw from the tee and lets say you throw it in. Now you get a 3. That's best case from the result of a bad shot. I understand how abandoned throw works and the logic of the provisional here.

 

[_MTL_]

What's the criteria for determining that a disc that probably went OB but can't be found is a lost disc instead of OB? Does each player get to pick whichever is most advantageous each time?

Whether a disc is OB or lost is group decision or officials decision, just like if a disc is in bounds or out of bounds, where a disc crossed out of bounds, etc.

A player can always appeal the groups decision to a TD and pay a provisional to help prevent collusion.

 

[dmoore1998]

Related question...I know the adage "you always have the option to abandon your lie and rethrow"...can I abandon a lie OB that I've already thrown a provisional on in case it went OB? So I think I threw OB. Throw a provisional that goes OB. Then abandon my lie on the first throw and re-tee for my 3rd shot basically ignoring the provisional I threw for the exact reason I threw the provisional? Or once I throw the provisional have I already elected NOT to abandon my lie if I went OB?

 

[dmoore1998]

Whether a disc is OB or lost is group decision or officials decision, just like if a disc is in bounds or out of bounds, where a disc crossed out of bounds, etc.

A player can always appeal the groups decision to a TD and pay a provisional to help prevent collusion.

I guess that's the crux of my question. OP says the player just "chose" to decide it was lost...as if they had 2 options (lost or OB). This doesn't strike me as a thing the player gets to choose on. Either the group feels there was compelling evidence it went OB, or they do not.

 

[krupicka]

I guess that's the crux of my question. OP says the player just "chose" to decide it was lost...as if they had 2 options (lost or OB). This doesn't strike me as a thing the player gets to choose on. Either the group feels there was compelling evidence it went OB, or they do not.

I wish more people would realize this.

 

[biscoe]

Related question...I know the adage "you always have the option to abandon your lie and rethrow"...can I abandon a lie OB that I've already thrown a provisional on in case it went OB? So I think I threw OB. Throw a provisional that goes OB. Then abandon my lie on the first throw and re-tee for my 3rd shot basically ignoring the provisional I threw for the exact reason I threw the provisional? Or once I throw the provisional have I already elected NOT to abandon my lie if I went OB?

I think once you have had the reason for the provisional fulfilled then you would need to play the provisional. Provisional is basically an if/then proposition- as soon as the "if" is fulfilled regarding your 1st shot imo you have technically already thrown your third shot (in the case of OB). You could choose to abandon your provisional which at that point has become simply "your shot" but that would leave you throwing 5 rather than 3.

 

[_MTL_]

I guess that's the crux of my question. OP says the player just "chose" to decide it was lost...as if they had 2 options (lost or OB). This doesn't strike me as a thing the player gets to choose on. Either the group feels there was compelling evidence it went OB, or they do not.

Yeah, but at the end of the day, he always has the option to return to previous lie with penalty, so the result would be the same.

But you are correct. Each group member has to reply and failure to give an answer / say "well I wasn't watching so I don't know" is a courtesy warning.

And then its simply majority with the most beneficial ruling as the tie breaker.

 

[dmoore1998]

Yeah, but at the end of the day, he always has the option to return to previous lie with penalty, so the result would be the same.

But you are correct. Each group member has to reply and failure to give an answer / say "well I wasn't watching so I don't know" is a courtesy warning.

And then its simply majority with the most beneficial ruling as the tie breaker.

Thanks, so then can you address my question of whether they "really" always have the option to return to the previous lie when it comes to provisionals?

I'll modify the situation to make it less cloudy about the OB.

1. I throw and it probably goes OB.
2. I throw a provisional in case my first shot went OB that definitely goes OB.
3. I walk up and find my first throw and it is OB. OR I can't find my first throw but there is compelling evidence that it went OB, hence it is ruled OB.
Question: Am I allowed to return to my previous lie from the first shot and throw stroke #3 off the tee? Does it matter if my provisional was off the tee as well? Essentially can I ignore a provisional result that I don't like and choose to abandon my lie and return to the previous lie and throw again?

 

[krupicka]

Thanks, so then can you address my question of whether they "really" always have the option to return to the previous lie when it comes to provisionals?

I'll modify the situation to make it less cloudy about the OB.

1. I throw and it probably goes OB.
2. I throw a provisional in case my first shot went OB that definitely goes OB.
3. I walk up and find my first throw and it is OB. OR I can't find my first throw but there is compelling evidence that it went OB, hence it is ruled OB.
Question: Am I allowed to return to my previous lie from the first shot and throw stroke #3 off the tee? Does it matter if my provisional was off the tee as well? Essentially can I ignore a provisional result that I don't like and choose to abandon my lie and return to the previous lie and throw again?

If the reason for the provisional is true (in this example, throwing a provisional in case it goes OB), then you must use the provisional. You can abandon the provisional for the usual cost for abandonment. Hence in this case, you could throw again from wherever you threw the provisional.
+1 - OB first throw
+1 - penalty for the first OB throw
+1 - provisional throw if the first throw was OB
+1 - for abandoning provisional throw
So now at this point you are throwing 5 from the wherever the provisional was thrown from.

If the provisional was thrown from somewhere other than the tee, you cannot go back to the tee. You must use the lie from where the provisional was thrown.

 

[_MTL_]

Agreed with what Krupicka said.

The player chose to throw a provisional from the drop zone if he was OB. He could have chosen a provisional and thrown from the tee again, but chose not to. Once he determines the original tee shot is OB, he's OB, provisional is in effect, which is OB and as said above, he's now throwing 5 from there.

 

[Cgkdisc]

As I posted earlier, Lost Disc in the provisional rule should be both a specific condition that can be called for a provisional and also be included by default as a condition in tandem when either OB, missed mando or potentially above 2m are called for a provisional. This would reduce the confusion brought up in this thread.

 

[dmoore1998]

Agreed with what Krupicka said.

The player chose to throw a provisional from the drop zone if he was OB. He could have chosen a provisional and thrown from the tee again, but chose not to. Once he determines the original tee shot is OB, he's OB, provisional is in effect, which is OB and as said above, he's now throwing 5 from there.

So the idea of "the result would have been the same" whether the shot was determined OB or lost wouldn't have existed in this particular case then right? Because if it had been determined OB...and his OB provisional was also OB, he would have been throwing 5 . As it stood, with a choice of "lost disc" he was throwing 3 off the tee.

Maybe it's just the impression I got...but the initial story seemed to be very much in the vein of "I don't really want to find my disc so let's not look too hard because a lost disc is a huge advantage here"...coupled with the idea that a player gets to choose that it's lost (as opposed to a real ruling).

 

[dmoore1998]

If the reason for the provisional is true (in this example, throwing a provisional in case it goes OB), then you must use the provisional. You can abandon the provisional for the usual cost for abandonment. Hence in this case, you could throw again from wherever you threw the provisional.
+1 - OB first throw
+1 - penalty for the first OB throw
+1 - provisional throw if the first throw was OB
+1 - for abandoning provisional throw
So now at this point you are throwing 5 from the wherever the provisional was thrown from.

If the provisional was thrown from somewhere other than the tee, you cannot go back to the tee. You must use the lie from where the provisional was thrown.

Thanks, that's what made sense but that doesn't mean I was confident it was the rule. Appreciate it.

 

[Steve West]

As I posted earlier, Lost Disc in the provisional rule should be both a specific condition that can be called for a provisional and also be included by default as a condition in tandem when either OB, missed mando or potentially above 2m are called for a provisional. This would reduce the confusion brought up in this thread.

That would work if re-throw was the only option for missed mando or OB. But, because there are drop zones (sometimes required) it wouldn't always work.

Example: a disc fades out of sight and may be in the OB road. On the way to the disc, the player stops by the drop zone for OB to throw a provisional - in case the disc is OB, to save the walk back.

They can't find the disc, and no one saw it go OB, so it's lost. That provisional throw from the OB drop zone could not be used for the lost disc.


It does makes sense that any player who makes a re-throw as a provisional throw should also add "or in case the disc is lost". But because not all provisional throws are re-throws, the rules cannot always automatically force the use of the provisional throw in case of lost disc.


(Two meter is not an allowed condition because the lie is behind a mini placed below the disc or on a line back from the mini, so provisional throws can't save time in this case.)

 

[_MTL_]

So the idea of "the result would have been the same" whether the shot was determined OB or lost wouldn't have existed in this particular case then right? Because if it had been determined OB...and his OB provisional was also OB, he would have been throwing 5 . As it stood, with a choice of "lost disc" he was throwing 3 off the tee.

Yes. I completely misunderstood the situation.

 

[dmoore1998]

As I posted earlier, Lost Disc in the provisional rule should be both a specific condition that can be called for a provisional and also be included by default as a condition in tandem when either OB, missed mando or potentially above 2m are called for a provisional. This would reduce the confusion brought up in this thread.

To me part of the confusion in the thread is the...silliness...let's say of a player making a throw. Thinking it is likely enough that the throw went out of bounds to throw a provisional. Not being able to find the disc. Then saying the disc is lost because they don't think there's compelling evidence the disc went OB even though they thought it was compelling enough to the point of throwing a provisional. I guarantee if this player's provisional was a great shot they would have "chosen" to call it an OB and not re-tee for a lost disc.

 

[_MTL_]

To me part of the confusion in the thread is the...silliness...let's say of a player making a throw. Thinking it is likely enough that the throw went out of bounds to throw a provisional. Not being able to find the disc. Then saying the disc is lost because they don't think there's compelling evidence the disc went OB even though they thought it was compelling enough to the point of throwing a provisional. I guarantee if this player's provisional was a great shot they would have "chosen" to call it an OB and not re-tee for a lost disc.

Yes, the OP's situation story and their rationale still doesn't make sense.

The push for Provisionals are the end all be all to me is a big mistake we have made in disc golf.

Provisionals are great in certain situations but cannot ever
1. be something that makes something take longer.
2. Be something that creates an advantage
3. Be something that prevents a group from making a call

 

[chevis]

a related question: a provisional is taken for lost disc. the disc is found way further down the fairway after the subsequent(2nd/3rd) throw. does the player get to use the found lie, or has it already been declared lost & therefore can't be used?

 

[biscoe]

a related question: a provisional is taken for lost disc. the disc is found way further down the fairway after the subsequent(2nd/3rd) throw. does the player get to use the found lie, or has it already been declared lost & therefore can't be used?

805.03.C- Once a disc has been declared lost, the status does not change if subsequently found.