Proposed rule changes for 2024

[Dcinmd]

I agree that the rule should say that it doesn't matter if the player was allowed to play the hole or not.
If the TD is not at the first tee or if it's a shotgun start, who decides whether a player can arrive late and play the hole? If it's up to the other players on the card than I bet they would let the late player "catch up".
If a TD learns about a late player after the fact he/she should penalize the player with a +4, even though the player played the hole.

How can the TD confirm a player has made it to their hole in a shot gun start in time, after they have check in? Telepathy?

How does that rule work on the 2nd round of the day when players do not have to check back in?

Obviously players have to check in with the TD each day, but even in this case it is not clear if the player had or had not checked in with the TD before the round.

 

[ru4por]

If I was the late player I would certainly play the hole as a provisional and force the call to be made later by the TD. The starter is likely a tournament official.

 

[BillFleming]

just to clarify, based off of what I'm reading from that volunteer - he should NOT have been allowed to play the hole, right? as in, Nate was correctly trying to apply the rule.

811.F.5:

Absent. If a player is not present at the start of the round for their assigned group, the player is considered absent and does not play the hole. A player is also considered absent if the player has not played the previous hole and is not present when their group is ready to start on a hole. The absent player receives a score of par plus four on each hole not played. Par is determined by the Director.
(emphasis added by me)

The player COULD (and should) play the hole out....they can do it by stating they are going to appeal the ruling. It's similar, but different, to playing a provisional.

Also, the part I'm having difficulty with is that Luke WAS present at the start of the round for his assigned group. It doesn't matter when the start was SCHEDULED for....that isn't when the round started. I don't believe he should have been penalized for showing up at the start of his round. I guess because he wasn't there when the first person teed off might have caused the ruling....but, like him, I would have appealed it to the PDGA.

 

[ballgolfconvert]

Wasn't it Nick Heimhold that called the penalty on Nikko and caused that huge disruption to the sport? Under the new rules Nikko wouldn't have been penalized (I told you all back then the rules (or lack of) were at fault. Now once again he calls a penalty, that wasn't a penalty and causes disruption again. I think it is time to send this troublemaker into the bins of history. No player should have to endure this type of action.

 

[BillFleming]

If I was the late player I would certainly play the hole as a provisional and force the call to be made later by the TD. The starter is likely a tournament official.

The starter isn't guaranteed to be a tournament official. I've been a volunteer at tournaments and even in tournaments and the starter in all of them was never a tournament official.

 

[jenb]

So should the throws made playing the hole count as practice throws and incur a penalty?

 

[ru4por]

The starter isn't guaranteed to be a tournament official. I've been a volunteer at tournaments and even in tournaments and the starter in all of them was never a tournament official.

We have different experiences. I did say likely.

 

[ru4por]

The player COULD (and should) play the hole out....they can do it by stating they are going to appeal the ruling. It's similar, but different, to playing a provisional.

Also, the part I'm having difficulty with is that Luke WAS present at the start of the round for his assigned group. It doesn't matter when the start was SCHEDULED for....that isn't when the round started. I don't believe he should have been penalized for showing up at the start of his round. I guess because he wasn't there when the first person teed off might have caused the ruling....but, like him, I would have appealed it to the PDGA.

I don't think any of this is correct.

 

[glassila]

How can the TD confirm a player has made it to their hole in a shot gun start in time, after they have check in? Telepathy?

How does that rule work on the 2nd round of the day when players do not have to check back in?

Obviously players have to check in with the TD each day, but even in this case it is not clear if the player had or had not checked in with the TD before the round.

How can the TD confirm a player has made it to their hole in a shot gun start in time, after they have check in? Telepathy?

How does that rule work on the 2nd round of the day when players do not have to check back in?

Obviously players have to check in with the TD each day, but even in this case it is not clear if the player had or had not checked in with the TD before the round.

A player from another card could have seen the situation and told the TD about it.
A player on the late person's card could inform the TD.
A spectator could inform the TD.

If a TD learns about a violation they can investigate it and act on it right?

I'm sure this probably happens once in awhile at smaller tournaments and everyone just lets it slide. I would be fine with it if I was on a card and a player arrived a minute late.

 

[BillFleming]

I don't think any of this is correct.

Any time you state to the group or the TD that you are going to appeal the ruling you can play 'it' out. For example, if you think you are allowed a different lie and the card or TD says no. You can say you are going to appeal the ruling and play a provisional. You card two scores and then you take the appeal to the next higher level. Likewise, if you are ruled late and state you are going to appeal it, you can play the hole, mark two scores and then take it up with the next higher level.

I had a friend who had something happen similar to this and he believed the card that he couldn't play the hole. The TD wasn't there but was asked later and the answer was that he could have done what I said above....state he was going to appeal it, play the hole out and card both scores, then discuss it with the TD after the round.

In Luke's case, his appeal would have been to the PDGA.

 

[krupicka]

...

In Luke's case, his appeal would have been to the PDGA.

Incorrect. The TD has the final say. There is no appeal beyond the TD.

 

[Dcinmd]

A player from another card could have seen the situation and told the TD about it.
A player on the late person's card could inform the TD.
A spectator could inform the TD.

If a TD learns about a violation they can investigate it and act on it right?

I'm sure this probably happens once in awhile at smaller tournaments and everyone just lets it slide. I would be fine with it if I was on a card and a player arrived a minute late.

Are we talking about a national tour with tee times or a C-tier shotgun start? HUGE difference.

One C-tier we had 15 minutes to walk a mile and half to a hole of a 36 hole course for the second round. I left as soon the the holes where posted and was the first to arrive between two minutes and the beginning of play with another member of the card. We waiting about 2 minutes after the start of play. We did not stroke the player for a poor decision on the TD part.

If Luke check in with the TD to start the round and then showed up as his name was called on the tee I have zero issues with ruling of no plenty strokes. If he didn't check in, then I have an issue. But it is unreasonable to believe the TD can monitor all tee pads. And of course the TD has to make a ruling as an official if a card brings ANY issue to them.

 

[roblee]

The scores indicate Luke was not penalized so can anyone corroborate how this played out?

 

[robdeforge]

Incorrect. The TD has the final say. There is no appeal beyond the TD.

When Luke appealed to Nate, Nate said the penalty would stand. A review of his scores posted after the event does not show par+4 for that hole, so it would seem his appeal to somebody else other than Nate was successful?

Are we talking about a national tour with tee times or a C-tier shotgun start? HUGE difference.

One C-tier we had 15 minutes to walk a mile and half to a hole of a 36 hole course for the second round. I left as soon the the holes where posted and was the first to arrive between two minutes and the beginning of play with another member of the card. We waiting about 2 minutes after the start of play. We did not stroke the player for a poor decision on the TD part.

If Luke check in with the TD to start the round and then showed up as his name was called on the tee I have zero issues with ruling of no plenty strokes. If he didn't check in, then I have an issue. But it is unreasonable to believe the TD can monitor all tee pads. And of course the TD has to make a ruling as an official if a card brings ANY issue to them.

"If a player is not present at the start of the round for their assigned group, the player is considered absent and does not play the hole." If you're trying to say that checking in with the TD to start the round = being present at the start of the round, I feel like we're in trouble.

 

[krupicka]

When Luke appealed to Nate, Nate said the penalty would stand. A review of his scores posted after the event does not show par+4 for that hole, so it would seem his appeal to somebody else other than Nate was successful?

No, it means that more discussions were had by Nate and his team and Nate changed his call. Nate did not make any of these calls in a vacuum.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

Humphries should've been at the first tee in time to watch his card mates throw, if for no other reason than to get a wind read off of them.

 

[txmxer]

Are we talking about a national tour with tee times or a C-tier shotgun start? HUGE difference.

One C-tier we had 15 minutes to walk a mile and half to a hole of a 36 hole course for the second round. I left as soon the the holes where posted and was the first to arrive between two minutes and the beginning of play with another member of the card. We waiting about 2 minutes after the start of play. We did not stroke the player for a poor decision on the TD part.

If Luke check in with the TD to start the round and then showed up as his name was called on the tee I have zero issues with ruling of no plenty strokes. If he didn't check in, then I have an issue. But it is unreasonable to believe the TD can monitor all tee pads. And of course the TD has to make a ruling as an official if a card brings ANY issue to them.

I agree. Shotgun starts where starts can be a significant distance from tournament control should function a bit different.

 

[robdeforge]

No, it means that more discussions were had by Nate and his team and Nate changed his call. Nate did not make any of these calls in a vacuum.

Thank you for the clarification. It is strange that, supposedly, Luke said "ok I'll appeal" and Nate said "OK, result of your appeal is still par+4". Is there a better process for informing players of appeals process already in place that wasn't followed? or was this just a messy situation?

 

[uncle pennybags]

At first I thought it seems like appealing to the TD making the call is kind of defeating the point. But after I think about it some more it makes sense that TD's are kind of the end of the road for rules violation appeals. Chaos would likely ensue if anyone could just appeal.

I would think that at the 'Disc Golf is my Job' level that there would be a more layers. Possibly.

 

[txmxer]

At first I thought it seems like appealing to the TD making the call is kind of defeating the point. But after I think about it some more it makes sense that TD's are kind of the end of the road for rules violation appeals. Chaos would likely ensue if anyone could just appeal.

I would think that at the 'Disc Golf is my Job' level that there would be a more layers. Possibly.

Not aware of any other sport that might be adjudicated by others or after the event is over for "sport" related calls. Football has allowed discipline related calls to be reviewed and judged after the fact which is actually good IMO.

With DG, I can see the provisional rules allowing an after the fact rule assessment. I'm still not inclined to think a non-official/player should be able to initiate a sports related rules call.