First form check!

[sidewinder22]

Pump/push air to target swinging out. Disc should be closer to vertical at top, knuckles up to sky.

 

[Brychanus]

Pump/push air to target swinging out. Disc should be closer to vertical at top, knuckles up to sky.
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View attachment 335037

Weird, I was literally just thinking of Philo. Thanks man, will adjust next

Edit: yeah that functions much better. Immediately made the grip better, makes it easier to move thru the hips/swivel stairs, offers more compression, a little easier to find the "hershyzer" in transition. I think I need to keep working on the issues since ~post 1224 for a bit.

Anyway, here's one from first attempts if I need an immediate tweak. My body keeps finding creative ways to resist fully leading with the mAss - part mechanics, part psychology.

 

[sidewinder22]

Stand up on rear leg/toes. You are so flat footed/sinking.

 

[Brychanus]

Stand up on rear leg/toes. You are so flat footed/sinking.

Practice round on local meat grinder course report:

My friend, this is working way better, probably best yet. I was in birdie attack position off the tee more often and comfortably and could control my power with momentum like having my hand on the throttle. This is the closest I've been to that "magic McBethy" feel that brought me here so many posts ago. So I'm motivated to keep going and locking this form down for the tournament. Best power effort ratio in two years, good control(ish), and I could tell there is more in the tank if I practice with more momentum/shift. I get to tell you "Well done, coach!"

In the meantime, weakest points in the move are:
1. Flat footed
2. Transition move thru swivel stairs. Walking it out def. helps
3. Patience to let my body sync up and wait for the swing to unfurl.

I wanted to share one shot from the last session because I think I should make my setup/first move more like this (ignore the actual throw). Calmer and more control, on the course today I found it easier to be less flat footed once I start moving.

 

[Brychanus]

Trying to resist more in rear foot again, a little dodgy. Will keep working.



Edit: I think I want to be in the ballpark of Throw 2 in the long run, but less flat footed and need pendulum in slightly better sequence...

 

[Brychanus]

No worries (and maybe better off) if no feedback until after the tourney (Saturday), but I did want to at least add a baseline for outdoor throws. I will play a practice rd. Weds and then just give it my best shot.

Gorgeous day. I just wanted to warm up my outdoor form with the first Comet field session in months.

I think we see the same leg action problems and head rushing issue I did before 2nd kid and winter. I did have much better control over my leaning and my head than I used to when I focused on it. I did also succeed on getting higher on the ball of my foot in transition toward the end (e.g. throw 3 - yes, that's me "resisting" my own body mass lmao). I really liked the power/effort ratio of that third one and the others like it.

In terms of the whole move, focusing on 'getting longer' and more 'waltz like' was more effective than any other swing thought today, and what works outside is definitely not exactly the same as what works inside, though there was still learning value in what I did when confined to my basement again. When I got the head and length and waltz working together, I could feel awesome action into and out of the pocket at low effort and had a few sick throws.

I intellectually get what I'm supposed to be doing but kinesthetically just have no idea how to fix my legs in live outdoor throws (sequence confusion, knees moving in wrong directions W-E in transition). Occasionally I thought it was better and there are some throws less problematic than others, then watching it back was always the same problem. Sidewinder has thrown so much work at me on this that at this point I'm not optimistic I can change it. I might just need to decide that I can live with it if nothing is working. I'll update when I'm on other side of tourney.



Edit: on the bright side, it does look like the new Philo pump and pocket & arm action are trending reliably better than they used to be. So I'm going to lock that in. I think if my knuckles become even more like his as I "pound the hammer" it might help with the overall torque and coil and staying closed in the backswing and might also help me get off the rear side better. Just a guess. Will test in my next round.



Edit 2: Someone actually took the time to downvote my form critique video here (without comment), lmao. That's a first.

 

[Brychanus]

Practice moves today seem to make it very clear that my pump direction in the last video there was related to my pelvis leaking open in the forward pump. If I take my knuckles and move it much more like Philo and even exaggerate past that, it seems to close it off completely as I pump forward and my legs move more like Swivel stairs without more fuss. So I dunno how much it will fix but I'll mind it tomorrow AM and feel it out and see if I can control my shots. If I like it I'll just run with it this weekend.

Edit: I also tried this with a 10 lb weight plate which suddenly made it obvious how much weaker the other pump is.

 

[sidewinder22]

Stay tall and fall on rear leg. Don't be a jack in the box.

 

[Brychanus]

Stay tall and fall on rear leg. Don't be a jack in the box.

Lmao thanks man.

All-out "twinkle" waltz toe lead/kick the can with mAss leading into the transition again? Seems like I can do it in drill move and need to get aloft and not chicken out in throws.

Edit: I tried this in my AM round and had a "spotter" watch me. I just kept trying to copy Simon in transition and it worked better immediately in terms of effort/power and I felt less "plodding" in the backswing. He kept giving me feedback about when my shot looked more fluid/waltzy and it helped. I'm sure it wasn't as elegant as I imagined it but I'll keep after it and check outdoor throws again next week.

I also want to mention that at this point waltz cues/swing thoughts are working way better for my x-step than anything else. Baseball and golf cues are working better for my standstills/transition to plant and throw.

 

[Brychanus]

I toned down my idea above because it was clear while I could "stay tall and fall," I was leaking some leverage on the rear side. So tried to get still lighter on balls of feet like waltz and "stay tall and fall." Not perfect but a little progress, need to keep working on staying in aggressive posture. Still messing a little with pump bc I keep finding little bits of leverage to play with I but like it Philo-ish.



Edit: experimented with more vert. Some parts were better in transition but I initially started to collapse pocket again w/more acceleration.
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Edit: rear side of swivel stairs/slight lean away not looking great to me.

 

[Brychanus]

I am still focused on trying to "tall & fall" the transition move regardless of pump direction and height, launch angle etc. Something always making the transition move feel a little off similar to this post. I can kinda manipulate it but not sticking yet. Anyway, going to relax ahead of this weekend and just enjoy throwing.

 

[sidewinder22]

Your tilt never changes direction, it just gets steeper as you keep sliding lower under.

 

[Brychanus]

Thanks man!

So looking at the last couple days I think I will return to more Hershyzer and DD and Can and try to work on this from the "tall and fall" phase. I can kind of manipulate it in real time in throws and have more success in more horizontal control drives, but I think my body still needs to get much more comfortable with the added momentum in aggressive posture.

I underestimated how much more I had to learn and gain there.

Edit: interesting, I can even see/feel it shot to shot. If the balance starts better on the rear side, my body immediately wants to shy away and spoil it. If I start in less or the wrong tilt I just end up where you showed there.

 

[Brychanus]

Shut the front door.

Imma try to help us hack my brain man. I think leaning into and taking a new pro cue that accesses my dance feelies/muscle memory for this part might help.

My move on the right is not exactly the same posturally but you get what I mean:



I don't think I've ever actually "tried" this before. I only focused on this part here. Please tell me if I'm onto something. You can see it interacting with my overall balance in a few here:


Tourney's postponed so I'll get a little rest and pick it up here if it seems reasonable.

 

[SocraDeez]

instant feedback note
Haven't followed the entire conversation, but most recent video seems better. Compare the size of the "triangles" of basement floor made when your legs cross between this video and the others.

general theory note
Seems like your right leg is the dominant one* that does most of the work/lifting propelling your mass this way and that when you locomote in daily life. In the right-hand-back-hand-x-move throw, left leg should be the greater propellant (right is the stopper). In most of your basement throws, you are creating most of your forward energy with the right leg, which is heavily influencing your posture/lean. As you know, when a biped moves from one leg to another, the bottom of the spine moves toward the new-weight-bearing appendage while the top of the spine moves counter to it. The magnitude of the bend/lean/posture is related to that of the force being created by the weight-bearing-appendage. So, in the context of moving laterally in the right-hand-back-hand-x-move, using the right leg as main propellant generally creates more lean toward back of tee pad.

*here's a dominance test: sit on the floor and try to get to a standing position. Which leg did you use? Interesting note - it seems like it's physically impossible (without help from a teammate) to stand up from a on-the-floor-seated-position using both legs equally to lift your mass.

personal practice note
Rewiring this preferred leg dominance pattern in the context of the disc golf swing is a lot of work but simple enough to practice. Most of the initial practice should be without a disc in hand/trying to throw. I start my right-hand-back-hand-x-move throw from a mostly forward looking/square position, so to practice left leg propulsion, I put my right leg behind my left (important) to start and then go from there. For your more lateral initial address position, you'll probably need to cross your right leg in front of/behind left to feel the left leg activate as that Prime Mover and then go from there.

pro form video note
Watch Garrett's legs here - there's some pitter patter at the start, but watch which step really initiates his forward propulsion. Same as in the Simon video above.

 

[Brychanus]

instant feedback note
Haven't followed the entire conversation, but most recent video seems better. Compare the size of the "triangles" of basement floor made when your legs cross between this video and the others.

general theory note
Seems like your right leg is the dominant one* that does most of the work/lifting propelling your mass this way and that when you locomote in daily life. In the right-hand-back-hand-x-move throw, left leg should be the greater propellant (right is the stopper). In most of your basement throws, you are creating most of your forward energy with the right leg, which is heavily influencing your posture/lean. As you know, when a biped moves from one leg to another, the bottom of the spine moves toward the new-weight-bearing appendage while the top of the spine moves counter to it. The magnitude of the bend/lean/posture is related to that of the force being created by the weight-bearing-appendage. So, in the context of moving laterally in the right-hand-back-hand-x-move, using the right leg as main propellant generally creates more lean toward back of tee pad.

*here's a dominance test: sit on the floor and try to get to a standing position. Which leg did you use? Interesting note - it seems like it's physically impossible (without help from a teammate) to stand up from a on-the-floor-seated-position using both legs equally to lift your mass.

personal practice note
Rewiring this preferred leg dominance pattern in the context of the disc golf swing is a lot of work but simple enough to practice. Most of the initial practice should be without a disc in hand/trying to throw. I start my right-hand-back-hand-x-move throw from a mostly forward looking/square position, so to practice left leg propulsion, I put my right leg behind my left (important) to start and then go from there. For your more lateral initial address position, you'll probably need to cross your right leg in front of/behind left to feel the left leg activate as that Prime Mover and then go from there.

pro form video note
Watch Garrett's legs here - there's some pitter patter at the start, but watch which step really initiates his forward propulsion. Same as in the Simon video above.

hey man, thanks so much for coming back!

Triangle: Yes, I see what you mean. I think this is also trending less "pretzeled" than any previous move.

Leg dominance - your test clearly confirms right leg dominance. There's more to that story in my case & a general problem that I think is just a fact of life I am going to have to work with & around:

My left leg was completely spiral fractured below the knee at age 12.* That leg:
-is shorter than my right leg.
-had the head of the tibia completely detached. It grew back with an unusual bone mass/bridge.
-had the femur longitudinally sheared for about half its length (i.e., split longways). It healed back together at an angle with an unusual bone mass in the middle.
-developed profound weakness in the calf, hammy, and glute to the point that I couldn't stand up on it out of a chair, much less the ground (it's much better now, but not symmetric).

They told me I probably didn't need surgery at the time. I remember seeing the x-ray at age 12 (and quite shy) thinking "how the hell is that going to heal back together on its own?" Maybe the surgery would have turned out worse, who knows.

My lower left leg looks like this inside:


Practice note: despite all that your point makes total sense to me & jives with the waltz maneuver. Sidewinder already had me use slight opposite stagger to nudge me in that direction. But I think if I practice exaggerating this as you say maybe I can get it to connect to my waltz move as the "prime mover" off the rear leg. Make sense on paper to you?

Pro form: yep, see it right away. BTW I still work on a little pitter patter and booty shake/salsa, which does help.

Last edit: most recent vid for ease of reference & inspirational image:

 

[sidewinder22]

I tried the leg dominance test, it doesn't make a difference which way I go. I think it has more to do with learned motor skill than dominance, unless there is no distinction. I still feel a little stronger on my right leg doing a pitching windup because it's been so engrained, while doing a lefty pitching windup has massively improved since playing disc golf/learning BH skills. I could barely do a windup lefty when I started, zero balance/motor control.

Your left leg being physically shorter now makes a lot sense, wish I knew(or remember) this info before. Makes sense why you tend to lean back away. My left leg is slightly longer than my right.

Start with your feet close together and bend/move your front leg so you are standing up on rear leg. Note how my front foot is out of the way/little pressure. Your front foot is out there with pressure impeding a more aggressive initial targetward move.

 

[Brychanus]

I tried the leg dominance test, it doesn't make a difference which way I go. I think it has more to do with learned motor skill than dominance, unless there is no distinction. I still feel a little stronger on my right leg doing a pitching windup because it's been so engrained, while doing a lefty pitching windup has massively improved since playing disc golf/learning BH skills. I could barely do a windup lefty when I started, zero balance/motor control.

Your left leg being physically shorter now makes a lot sense, wish I knew(or remember) this info before. Makes sense why you tend to lean back away. My left leg is slightly longer than my right.

Start with your feet close together and bend/move your front leg so you are standing up on rear leg. Note how my front foot is out of the way/little pressure. Your front foot is out there with pressure impeding a more aggressive initial targetward move.

View attachment 335623

I had mentioned it way back I think but also never shared how gruesome the inside looks, which no doubt probably influences the leverage and how I balance on it too lol. Plus you've done a lot for me in any case my friend I also know I don't want to turn this into a "strength" move, but there is still a bit of asymmetric mobility/strength in the supporting muscles of my left leg. So I think I'll just keep shoring that up as best I can which is good for the rest of life anyway...

Ok, so do you think it is acceptable to (1) start with this posture adjustment you mention and (2) make the first move like my waltz move with tilt to the rear side here? I think that literally describes part of how I would come out of an advanced box step. That seems like the only way I can figure out how to do anything closer to getting into "hershyzer" posture when I land the x-step.



Wait do you also use a lefty Forehand now too? I forget.

 

[sidewinder22]

Wait do you also use a lefty Forehand now too? I forget.

 

[Brychanus]

Oh, for any lurkers, the motor insight/mind blower I just had is that the first move or "box step" is basically the same as what this guy is setting up to do, but I needed to learn to do it in more athletic than waltz posture. The guy has his balance into the rear foot and is illustrating side bend.


Waltz posture will tend to extend the spine and retract the shoulders, whereas you want neutral spine and relaxed protracted shoulders in the setup for disc golf athletic posture. Otherwise this is the "same" move as SW's own setup a couple posts back if waltz guy relaxes into that posture. Notice that the athletic posture also gets your booty into "attack" or aggressive position to move more quickly and easily.


This was probably easier for my body & brain to realize suddenly because I had plenty of Waltz muscle memory before, but very little "athletic stance" experience to connect it to. This was the first time I felt both working together. It just got even more clear to me just now after Sidewinder told me to get more stacked/standing tall directly over the rear leg in my setup.