An Open Letter to Three Putt/Garubladder

[BogeyNoMore]

opcorn:
I've been enjoying the heck out of this thread! A bit tough to follow at times, but there's a lot of good stuff here.

This is what I suspect as well. There's probably some relationship that makes discs turn rather than one particular force or what not. The DV seems to be the more likely culprit than AV. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that a disc going too slow fades and that a disc going too fast turns. :|

Where's a shocked looking smilie when you need one?
Never thought I'd see the day that Brother Dave would post something about Directional Velocity vs. Angular Velocity! Thanks for chiming in, Bro!

Ladies & Gentlemen, I think we have a convert.:hfive:

 

[BrotherDave]

opcorn:
I've been enjoying the heck out of this thread! A bit tough to follow at times, but there's a lot of good stuff here.



Where's a shocked looking smilie when you need one?
Never thought I'd see the day that Brother Dave would post something about Directional Velocity vs. Angular Velocity! Thanks for chiming in, Bro!

Ladies & Gentlemen, I think we have a convert.:hfive:

Dude, I don't know what you are talking about, I am all about the physics up in this b-word.

 

[Lithicon]

Holy **** Jesus in the butt with no lube, I love everything that's going on there. Was that a Stalker Car? Should have been a Stalker Van. You know they're the shiz!

 

[VictorB]

This is what I suspect as well. There's probably some relationship that makes discs turn rather than one particular force or what not. The DV seems to be the more likely culprit than AV. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that a disc going too slow fades and that a disc going too fast turns. :|

example (and this is purely a numbers example)

a disc requires a dv of 10m/s to fly at its cruising speed. An av of 5rps is required to fly 'true' to the mold's capability. that would be a dv:av ratio of 2m/s:1rps.

the same disc is thrown at 2m/s, which is well below it's cruising speed. while it would make sense that the av would only require 1rps, the disc will never fly as it is truly intended because the cruising speed isn't being met. Anything over the 1rps required at this velocity will make the disc fly much more overstable. The dv:av ratio is really only applicable when cruising speed is being met or exceeded. All discs will fly much more overstable if their intended cruising speed isn't acheived. This would be comparable to throwing in a tailwind, since the relative air speed of the disc is actually lower than the actual non-relative velocity it is being thrown at.

this is mainly why knowing the requirements for a discs cruising speed is so crucial to being able to throw it properly in any condition.

 

[Lithicon]

Victor, that's all lies! Dave explained it correctly with his Stalker Car demonstration!

 

[sidewinder22]

Dude, I don't know what you are talking about, I am all about the physics up in this b-word.

Why is the Kitty shocked and beheaded?

 

[BogeyNoMore]

Dude, I don't know what you are talking about, I am all about the physics up in this b-word.

Best post ever regarding the the physics of a throw!
:thmbup: LOL!!

 

[HeartlessCynic]

Why is the Kitty shocked and beheaded?

Wouldn't you be shocked to see you were about to be beheaded?

 

[BogeyNoMore]

example (and this is purely a numbers example)

a disc requires a dv of 10m/s to fly at its cruising speed. An av of 5rps is required to fly 'true' to the mold's capability. that would be a dv:av ratio of 2m/s:1rps.

the same disc is thrown at 2m/s, which is well below it's cruising speed. while it would make sense that the av would only require 1rps, the disc will never fly as it is truly intended because the cruising speed isn't being met. Anything over the 1rps required at this velocity will make the disc fly much more overstable. The dv:av ratio is really only applicable when cruising speed is being met or exceeded. All discs will fly much more overstable if their intended cruising speed isn't acheived. This would be comparable to throwing in a tailwind, since the relative air speed of the disc is actually lower than the actual non-relative velocity it is being thrown at.

this is mainly why knowing the requirements for a discs cruising speed is so crucial to being able to throw it properly in any condition.

Thanks - sometimes you just gotta plug some numbers into an equation to understand how things behave. Also explains why those higher speed discs always seem so overstable, because most people can't get them to their intended speed.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

Wouldn't you be shocked to see you were about to be beheaded?

To misquote Dirty Harry, "Nothing wrong with beheading, as long as the right people are getting beheaded."

 

[sidewinder22]

Wouldn't you be shocked to see you were about to be beheaded?

You wouldn't see you've been beheaded until after it happened. I wouldn't be shocked, more like pissed.

 

[HeartlessCynic]

You wouldn't see you've been beheaded until after it happened. I wouldn't be shocked, more like pissed.

Thus the "about to be beheaded". See it coming and you'd be like "OH SHI..."

 

[grodney]

Rodney,

I'm glad you chimed in. I respect your knowledge and experience. Now I don't know what's correct. I'm not saying you're wrong, but can you cite any external evidence to support the claims of your first 2 points?

Yes: Faith.

 

[jtencer]

What I really want to know is what disc features contribute to different flight characteristics.
SPEED
GLIDE
TURN
FADE
Stability

Thanks in advance

Speed: A measure of the drag force (At the design speed I would guess)
Glide: A measure of the lift force (particularly at low speeds)
Stability: Has to do with the moment of inertia of the disc (Higher moment => more stability)

Turn/Fade: Flight characteristics that are a consequence of stability (mostly) but also vary somewhat due to interactions with speed and glide. Basically, stability will give you a good idea of how the disc should be thrown but the actual flight path varies considerably because of differences in speed and glide.

 

[jtencer]

I read a blurb recently about pitchers throwing curve balls. This has to do with understability in that the same principle applies, at least to beat discs. It's called the "M____ Effect" (can't remember the name of it), but it says that the air pressure differs and causes the ball to move to the lower air pressure area and the disc's wing with the lower air pressure (R for RHBH throw) to dip in that direction.

That's what I can add.

The magnus effect is very small and is not the reason that discs turn and fade. The reason is conservation of angular momentum causing precession (tilt). A girl out of UC-davis wrote a master's thesis on it a couple years back if you want to see the math.

 

[hig2a4life]

Lol....guy...I can manipulate a wide rim disc without the use of snap....but you think everything is in some text book...keep on knowing everything...no wonder you say your game is weak...the best players...are the best learners...and you are far from letting anything pass through the discdome you speak so highly of having

Snap works best in wind situations since the disc is able to cut through the air better...how about them apples?...no snap...wide rim...wind...disc go bye bye....

I try to tell my students like I will tell you grasshopper...snap is later...first learn technique....and watch the LithiconDiscGolfShow too

I seriously hope you're high when you write posts. If you're not getting snap on all of your shots, you're most likely strong-arming and most likely not playing very well. Snap is not something that is specific to playing in the wind, it's something that is part of proper disc throwing technique that you should aim to create on every throw. Also, you must have no clue how discs work if you think snap alone will make you "cut through the air." If you're playing into a headwind and you get decent snap on something understable, you're going to find yourself throwing an unintentional roller. The disc will turn and burn. I just have to laugh at everything you post. "snap is later...first learn technique," is the single dumbest piece of advice I have ever seen in this forum. Learning technique means learning how to throw with snap. If you take your time trying to strong arm everything and then attempt to add in snap later, you're going to waste many years of disc golf being absolutely terrible. I feel like you must know this well if you truly believe that snap is situational and should only be taught after years of throwing it bad.

Lay off the weed and try to contribute something useful to these forums.

 

[grodney]

Speed: A measure of the drag force (At the design speed I would guess)
Glide: A measure of the lift force (particularly at low speeds)
Stability: Has to do with the moment of inertia of the disc (Higher moment => more stability)

Turn/Fade: Flight characteristics that are a consequence of stability (mostly) but also vary somewhat due to interactions with speed and glide. Basically, stability will give you a good idea of how the disc should be thrown but the actual flight path varies considerably because of differences in speed and glide.

You know those marketing terms that Innova has: Speed, Turn, Fade, Glide? Let's talk about "Turn" and "Fade".

Given two discs, is it possible for one disc to BOTH "Turn" more, and "Fade" more, with respect to the other disc? With the important assumption that everything else between the discs is equal (speed, spin, angle, etc.).

If so, what physical characteristics could/would cause such a difference?

I wrote the UC-Davis girl and asked her. She said she'd have to think about it. That was 4 years ago.

 

[optidiscic]

You know those marketing terms that Innova has: Speed, Turn, Fade, Glide? Let's talk about "Turn" and "Fade".

Given two discs, is it possible for one disc to BOTH "Turn" more, and "Fade" more, with respect to the other disc? With the important assumption that everything else between the discs is equal (speed, spin, angle, etc.).

If so, what physical characteristics could/would cause such a difference?

I wrote the UC-Davis girl and asked her. She said she'd have to think about it. That was 4 years ago.

I think the answer to your question 4 yrs ago became the Katana......good thing you didnt ask the UC-Davis gal for a date.....I have been waiting for yrs for some girls to call me!

 

[biscoe]

when thrown backhand (as if anyone does) the epic demonstrates a good bit of high speed turn and then fades like a shot duck when it slows down.

 

[atl scott]

I seriously hope you're high when you write posts.

NateDiscFlip is the reason I figured out how to block users on this site...