[Drivers] 175 to 165 gram-differences?

[rasfade]

Hello all! Wondering if dropping from a max weight driver to ones around 165 grams will make a huge difference in body strain.

I came back to disc golf a year or two ago, played a ton in my 20s. I can still throw further than many I meet, max around 450. I can park 400 ft. plus holes fairly often with my speed 12s (trespass, sword). As an old guy noob who could finally afford discs I bought a motherload of plastic. All max weight cuz that's what I saw the pros throw (before I realized disc golf forums now existed).

Have been experiencing pains in my elbow, shoulder, left knee(ACL reconstruction) and right hip (primarily rhbh with a few flicks). Pretty much hurting everywhere haha! Have realized with help of this forum and vids that I use way to much arm and not enough leg/hip in my throws.

I am still healthy but have alot of old sports injuries. I am 38 now, took 5 years off before getting back into disc. Maybe alot of the pain difference is age?

1) Wondering if dropping weight 10 grams, with my distance level, will make any difference in strain/pain?

2) Will working on my strongarm form flaws help more than a 10 gram drop ever would? I do stretch and ice as well.

3) Should I just work on form and body conditioning or drop my driver weight?

I use 175-176 gram mids and 172-173 gram putters. Thinking of trying a lighter putter but don't want to go much lighter on my mids.

4) Would it be best just to stick with 170 class drivers to keep weight more consistent in the bag?

5) Would 165 gram drivers be detrimental to my game in any way if I can throw 450 max?

Thanks alot for any who take the time to read all of this! I have really enjoyed learning about disc golf from all of the knowledgeable peeps on DGCR. I would love to hear from anyone who has been in my situation. Have a good one!

 

[mashnut]

I throw a little farther than you, and my drivers are all in the 165-170 range (except for a blizzard boss I only use on wide open holes). I don't think you should worry about that amount of weight difference throwing off your consistency, I certainly haven't had any issues with that and my putters are 175 and mids are 175-180.

I do think that if the main issue is pain you're going to get a lot better results cleaning up your form, disc weight will only make a marginal difference. Make sure you're following through, stopping your motion can easily cause elbow and knee pain. Also make sure you're pivoting on your heel, being up on your toes can put extra strain on your knee and hip. Posting a form video in the technique section here might get you some more personalized advice on how to avoid excess strain on your body.

 

[rasfade]

Thanks alot for the advice! I was just thinking I need to finally get some video. It seems hard for me to tell exactly what I do sometimes.

I do sometimes get on the ball of the foot and feel like I pivot on the heel less than the ball. I kind of step onto the ball, rotate on the heel, then finish on the ball of the foot. I have also felt a stopping sensation in my follow through, on max d tosses I often end up with my throwing arm high in the air behind and above my head (instead of against the lower back like many pros). I have also been told I "swoop" my swing by a pro. Great tips!

If this is more of a technique section thread then I apologize. If anyone would like to move it there please feel free.

 

[Questatement]

As a healthy, everything works pain free, 51 year old that plans on staying that way (playing 4-7 rounds a week), I graph a 'preferred weight' line based on speed and stability. Max weight ends aprox. on the stable side with a speed 6/7 around 1/5 HHS/LSS rating, over to the understable side with a speed 9/10 around -4/1.

Anything faster and/or more stable than this, I start dropping weight on a sliding scale. My longest drivers are all Blizzard Wraiths weighing in at 147-155g. I can get most heavier and/or faster drivers out to about the same distance but with less overall consistency and accuracy so why bother with them?

Funny story last weekend. Our gang was kickin' it atop Chavez ridge about 600' away and 150' above the nearest street. Some first timers came up and started talking about potential distance and asked if it's possible to reach that street from where we were. I said that half the guys in our group could but maybe not on the first throw. The new guy said he'd fetch all of the discs thrown just to see one reach the street. I called on our biggest arm and after he threw twice with no success, more jumped in line. After 6-7 guys and 20 failed attempts later, one of the guys I was raggin' said that I should demonstrate since I made the claim. When I pulled out my Blizzard Wraith, he said, "Girl discs don't count!"

Ha! One toss and I was on the street.

 

[rasfade]

Great story, I love it! And thanks for the detailed explaination of your method of choosing weights, very interesting. I would like to be impressing grommets in 13 years from now, that is awesome.
That is why I posted mainly cuz wondering if I could change a few things to keep myself in the game long term. Besides knee reconctruction apparently I injured a disc in my lower back skateboarding (well actually falling!) a long time ago. I also have a kayaking related shoulder injury to rotator cuff and printmaking related tenodonitis in the elbow which flares up. Would like to reduce strain on these areas so I can keep playing and keep getting better at this great game. I want to enjoy grandmasters stage! I think I will try to work on my form and also get a few lighter discs to try.

 

[Questatement]

Good form is the best protection against injury because in my experience, it transfers the strain to more of an all body load vs. specific/limited muscle groups but the weight of discs does help. I noticed it at the end of day and especially on back-to-back multi-days. That's why I settled on what I did.

 

[jrawk]

5 grams is the same weight as a US Nickle.

I doubt 2-3 nickles in weight is going to make much difference.

But 5 or 6 nickles (25g-30g) might. That is difference from 180 to 150.

 

[Questatement]

I think the difference is noticed based on a number of varibles.

Player's body weight
Strength
Age
Prior injuries
Length of play
Rigors of just walking the course
Weight being carried by the player
Form
Etc.

rasfade, I forgot to mention that I carry a max weight, OS Wraith for 10-15 mph headwinds and a max weight Boss for 15+ mph headwinds but here in sunny, near-windless, coastal California, I only pull those out several times a year.

 

[rasfade]

To me it makes total sense that it's just a couple nickels. It really feels like I can tell a difference in the amount of strain it takes even between a 170 and 175 though. Maybe I am just noticing stability differences. Or maybe it's all in my imagination.

That's why I am a bit confused and interested to hear what the experts think. I play alot of longer courses and wondered, if after 36 holes, would that ten grams per driver throw add up to significantly less strain?

Tired of all the pain after playing but I was having back and knee issues before I got back into disc. All of the walking seems to help alot. Throwing not so much. Kind of hoping for a quick fix I guess with a disc purchase vs. months of strength and form training. Always looking for excuses to add to my huge stacks o' plasic!

Questatement, from what you said would you still throw a Teebird and a River type disc around max weight then? Is it mainly you max d drivers that are lower? What weight do you use for like a Firebird/Predator type disc? Max d shots definitely are the ones that usually end up feeling bad on the back for me. Good point to have a couple heavier headwind discs, up here in Oregon I don't get a ton of wind, but when huge headwinds do rear up I like to dust off a Giant to toss.

Thanks again for all of the advice, it's greatly appreciated!

 

[Questatement]

TB's, I use a 175g beat 12x champ, 171g new star, and 168g 11x champ, based on low to high stability. I just added a 165g gstar to reduce skip and/or roll that seems to be working out. A 175 gstar could also replace my 12x nicely. I only bag two at a time.

Firebirds, I have a 175g crazy overstable champ that I only bring out in 15+ mph winds but other than that, I don't use one. Weird considering how popular they are.

 

[Questatement]

Is it mainly you max d drivers that are lower?

This is where it gets tricky. If the course is mostly short holes (under 350') I'll only pack a couple of Bliz Wriaths (leaving out the most understable) for the longer holes and save bag space for more fairways and mids.

If it's a longer course, I'll pack all three Bliz Wraiths and a 168 star which matches the middle stability Bliz Wraith and is my 425' max D disc. The Blizards will drop between 375' and 395' for me depending.

I prefer to range all shots at full-to-over power speeds (disc dependent) past putter range so coming up 40' short on 3 our of 18 holes still beats lacking the ability to range more effectively on the rest.

 

[Questatement]

Dup, sorry.

 

[jrawk]

To me it makes total sense that it's just a couple nickels. It really feels like I can tell a difference in the amount of strain it takes even between a 170 and 175 though. Maybe I am just noticing stability differences. Or maybe it's all in my imagination.

That's why I am a bit confused and interested to hear what the experts think. I play alot of longer courses and wondered, if after 36 holes, would that ten grams per driver throw add up to significantly less strain?

An analytical approach:

5 grams is .011 lbs.
10 grams is .022 lbs.
15 grams is 0.033 lbs.

etc..

130 grams is .28 lbs (blizzard)
150 grams is .33 lbs
160 grams is .35 lbs
175 grams is .38 lbs
180 grams is .40 lbs

Throwing Weight:

Throwing 10 times 130 grams is 2.8 lbs of total exertion.
Throwing 10 times 150 grams is 3.3 lbs of total exertion.
Throwing 10 times 160 grams is 3.5 lbs of total exertion.
Throwing 10 times 175 grams is 3.8 lbs of total exertion.
Throwing 10 times 180 grams is 4.0 lbs of total exertion.

Throwing 20 times 130 grams is 5.6 lbs of total exertion.
Throwing 20 times 150 grams is 6.6 lbs of total exertion.
Throwing 20 times 160 grams is 7.0 lbs of total exertion.
Throwing 20 times 175 grams is 7.6 lbs of total exertion.
Throwing 20 times 180 grams is 8.0 lbs of total exertion.



Carry weight:

Carrying 10 qty 130 grams is 2.8 lbs.
Carrying 10 qty 150 grams is 3.3 lbs.
Carrying 10 qty 160 grams is 3.5 lbs.
Carrying 10 qty 175 grams is 3.8 lbs.
Carrying 10 qty 180 grams is 4.0 lbs.

Carrying 20 qty 130 grams is 5.6 lbs.
Carrying 20 qty 150 grams is 6.6 lbs.
Carrying 20 qty 160 grams is 7.0 lbs.
Carrying 20 qty 175 grams is 7.6 lbs.
Carrying 20 qty 180 grams is 8.0 lbs.


Based on the numbers above, my advice to save strain on your body would be to keep your bag small in number of discs carried, and reduce the extra weight in your bag which is on your shoulders more often than having a disc in your hand. (Or try a cart)

I know i feel much fresher when i don't have to carry my entire bag.

 

[Questatement]

Along those lines, the pack you use and whether or not you use a chair make a huge difference. The DD Ranger pack is superb, especially the on and off dynamics, and I drop my chair even if I'm only going to sit for 15 seconds.

It all adds up.

 

[sidewinder22]

I prefer most my drivers in the 165-170 range. I go max weight on roadrunners though because they roll better. I love my Blizzard Bosses in 135-155g for max distance. Nothing beats practicing with some 150g Teebirds and your putters/mids to work on form and video.

 

[Questatement]

And you end up with being able to release the blizzard disc about 8% faster. This is all theory...

I don't percieve my ligher discs releasing faster, just the same speed with less effort.

I'm pretty sure that if the lighter discs were released faster, they would travel as far, if not further, than their heavier counterpart. All other things the same, I lose about 40' average with 18g less mass with a speed 11 disc.

However, the spread becomes smaller as the discs become slower which, along with less overall strain to get up to speed, defeats the purpose of carrying weight spreads in slower and/or less stable speeds.

 

[jrawk]

The issue is not about the mass of carrying the disc around or saving a tiny percentage of effort, but in the initial velocity you can give to a disc... Assume that you have a fixed maximum amount of energy that you can impart to a thrown object, such as a disc (this is a reasonable assumption). For simplicity's sake, we'll just use kinetic energy (ignoring potential or anything else).

KE = 1/2*m*v^2

Assuming you're throwing two of the same disc (say, a Wraith), one in blizzard 150g and one max-weight 175g, and we ignore any issue of mass distribution in the discs, we can write two equivalent statements of KE:

KE1 = 1/2*150*v1^2
KE2 = 1/2*175*v2^2

Set the two equations equal.
150*v1^2 = 175*v2^2

And you end up with being able to release the blizzard disc about 8% faster. This is all theory, and requires perfect energy transfer. In reality, you may actually see just a couple percent increase in initial velocity, because the mythical "armspeed" and "snap" we never really maximize, and can waste a significant amount of energy on steps, rotation, and whatever else you can think of.

Anyway, it feels easier to throw lighter plastic because you can impart the same velocity with less effort.

The problem with this analysis is arm weight (a constant) is not factored in. I have no idea the average weight of persons arm. For the sake of discussion let's say it's 10lbs.

10lbs + 1 150g disc = 10.33 lbs

10lbs + 1 175g disc = 10.38 lbs

 

[Questatement]

If it takes those kind of mad math skills to do well, I may as well hang up my bag.

 

[jrawk]

If it takes those kind of mad math skills to do well, I may as well hang up my bag.

Well, i think it just goes to show that the next time you see somebody playing with rings on their fingers, tell them to take them off because the 10-15 grams difference will save their arm and increase their distance.


I fully support throwing lighter discs because they fly different than their heavier versions. That makes some sense to me. But i don't put a lot of faith in the exertion-saving end of it. You can either throw 2 rounds without getting tired, or you can't. Switching to throw lighter discs is not going to save your arm. However switching to lighter discs to reduce carry weight might save yoru body some aches and pains.

 

[rasfade]

haha! I lost those math skills long ago! I really like all the different takes on answering the question though. Some of jrawk's figures really put it into perspective how small of a difference we are talking about.

I did start carrying a huge tourney bag with quad shocks not long before some of the back problems started getting worse. Tried switching to an expensive backpack style and it did not make a huge difference but definitely rides better. Have found in important rounds I only usually throw 5 to 7 discs tops. Perhaps going back to the crunch box may be a great suggestion. I just have so many beauties!

Great info so far and I would be stoked to hear any other thoughts on the matter. Thanks!