2018 Memorial Championship

[DinosaurThunder]

Patrick Brown was DQ'd at the Memorial for verbally abusing a spotter?

Patrick really hates disccraft events - what a turkey.

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2713981#post2713981

 

[davetherocketguy]

Patrick really hates disccraft events - what a turkey.

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2713981#post2713981

Soooo why would you show such distain for the folks handing out the $$$? Isn't that 2015 incident biting the hand that feeds you??? Jeez whatta knucklehead.

 

[John Hansen]

About 15 years ago, I killed a pigeon at Vista del Camino with a roller. It didn't explode like the one randy Johnson hit, but it was just as dead.

 

[PoorPutter]

Haven't watched the pros before.....watching Jomez final round.....why do these guys tee off to the side of the concrete tee pad? And is there like a blanket exception for anybody that wants to do that?

 

[brutalbrutus]

Haven't watched the pros before.....watching Jomez final round.....why do these guys tee off to the side of the concrete tee pad? And is there like a blanket exception for anybody that wants to do that?

Apparently the teepads are slippery there, so the TD makes a rule that you can tee within the "Marked area". Some of them are hard to see but if you look close enough you can see the flags that mark the extra space...

 

[Steve West]

Haven't watched the pros before.....watching Jomez final round.....why do these guys tee off to the side of the concrete tee pad? And is there like a blanket exception for anybody that wants to do that?

No blanket exception. The TD in that event marked an area to the side that was also part of the teeing area, to give players the choice of pad or dirt, whatever provided the best footing.

It's not uncommon when temporary tee pads are being used. But, you as a player don't get to do it unless the TD announces it and marks the areas.

 

[lyleoross]

Wowsers! The whole cheating because you are dirty and poor thing, is a load of hooey. Sorry. I grew up poor white, lived middle class for a while, and have done reasonably well in life. Um, pretty much all people cheat. The kind of cheating does vary, but part of that is opportunity. Rich folks cheat better, they get more breaks when they cheat (they tend to write the laws and know the judges), and typically, a lot more money is involved.

As for the golfers cheat less mantra, I had fun one day posting about four pages of cases where professional golfers were caught cheating. There are too many articles to read on the subject, written by golfers. There are definitions for every kind of golf cheating (where do you think ours come from?).

My general perception, maybe wrong, is that poor folks are actually more honest than rich ones. But that mainly came about from watching business deals go down. The way the rich steal from the poor is... criminal.

I don't know whether to laugh at you, or cry for you...

Don't go with cry, it'll make me feel guilty.

My impression is that the notion that so many feel that cheating is rampant in disc golf is the foot fault violation. It's a regular, we see it all the time. Yet we forget one thing, how many of those guys start out thinking, "I'm gonna foot fault to get a better lie?" I know of no case where this has been documented. You can't judge open field run-ups, who knows what's in a player's head, but you can judge a solid placement in the rough where getting it right might involve putting you behind a tree, or in a briar patch. The number of players I've seen put themselves in incredibly awkward positions to make sure they get that placement, is quite high. Maybe it's the advanced grandmasters I play with, perhaps their moral fiber is up there?

For a moment, lets deal with other infractions. I know of exactly one case of pencil whipping that has come out, last year. I've seen some mistakes on score cards, but nothing that really looked like whipping. Other than that, I don't know of any?

Back on track. Golf has no foot fault equivalent. What they have is "improving your lie." The two, foot faulting and improving your lie, have the same outcome. Each attempts to improve the position of the player on the fairway. Now, if I go Google improving your lie, I get 319,000 results, clearly a topic of much discussion. There are thousands of discussions on ways to do it. Patting down the grass, tapping your ball, and so on. The technique is used so much that it regularly shows up in movies (typically as a comedic move on the part of the villain), topics of discussion, and it is thought to be our President's favorite method of play but I'm sure it's bipartisan in nature. That is, I'm sure Obama did it too.

There is a fundamental difference between improving your lie, and foot faulting. I can make, a pretty solid argument, at least to my mind, that most foot faults are accidental, they are mostly due to laziness, a lack of attention to detail. I can't make that same argument for improving your lie. Oh, I suppose that player that tapped his ball five times to get a feel, didn't mean to move it forward and that the guy who pounded the grass in front of his ball didn't mean for it to roll forward, but I wouldn't bet on it.

So, for the moment, I'm gonna stick with my notion that disc golfers, to me, seem to be a bit less dishonest in their play. But I will note that my feeling there is only because the rules don't create the same opportunity for dishonesty. I have no doubt that if we introduced stand and deliver to our rules structure, the level of improving one's lie would come up to meet that of golf.

 

[hurricaine]

Patrick really hates disccraft events - what a turkey.

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2713981#post2713981

never realized how bad i want innova to name a mold the "Turkey" now hahaha

 

[lyleoross]

This might have been a (pretty good) joke, but....

Luckiness factor measures total randomness. Randomly lowering one player's score has the same effect as randomly increasing another player's score. They both tend to move the players' scores toward the middle of the pack by masking the real differences in player abilities which would tend to spread out scores.

So let me make sure I understand. Whenever a player makes a shot, or a series of shots, that is above their rating, it's random?

You're a little more solid in your assessment of a player's rating and how they play, than I am. For example, if a imagine that a player has the ability to throw a hyzer flip and that every throw is exactly the same and if you could give it a rating, he would be throwing that hyzer flip at a level of 950. In this case, sans wind, distractions etc., perfect conditions, every disc he throws lands right on top of the other. But I don't buy that. One throw, he throws it with a skill of 930, the next he throws it with a skill of 970. His ability overall is 950, but he's remarkably inconsistent throw to throw. Add to that, his ability to throw a backhand turnover averages in at 930, with the same 60 point swing. The number of real-world factors, slight variations is skill, attention, and hand-eye coordination; and luck factors, alright who farted, this disc is slightly different than that disc, the wind blew, the fan moved, Eagle's phone rang, Ricky walked in front of Paul when he putted, and Paul went to pee, etc., means that parsing out luck or unluckiness from variations in player ability, throw to throw, means you can't separate the two, to my mind. The luckiness factor might prove entertainment value, and I'm a fan of that, but I don't think we have the ability to give it real meaning.

If I buy that I can measure luckiness, then I can measure unluckiness. But people are, I suspect, going to be much less interested.

 

[robdeforge]

So, for the moment, I'm gonna stick with my notion that disc golfers, to me, seem to be a bit less dishonest in their play. But I will note that my feeling there is only because the rules don't create the same opportunity for dishonesty. I have no doubt that if we introduced stand and deliver to our rules structure, the level of improving one's lie would come up to meet that of golf.

If you aren't playing by the rules, I don't really care why or why not. An accidental foot fault is still a foot fault. It's all this wishy washy stuff that makes rules enforcement so difficult on people that actually want to call things. If you, totally 100% accidentally, miss your mark by 3 feet, I shouldn't even have to think "am I a dick for calling this?" It's not an indictment against your character or integrity to have something called against you.

As soon as you stop thinking about whether or not Ricky really meant to miss his mark to give himself an advantage or if it was an honest to god mistake, things become a lot easier. Call rules violations when you see them. Hopefully, that person will adjust their playing style to ensure they don't get called again.

edit: In case you were just further clarifying your opinion on the difference between golfers and disc golfers, not if foot faults should be called, I humbly beg your pardon.

 

[Nubes]

Randy Johnson blew up a pigeon once...

I remember that! That was CRAZY!

 

[brutalbrutus]

I guess it was a dove...

 

[dbanderson]

Timmy Gill hit a duck, richocheted off and aced the hole!

 

[Steve West]

So let me make sure I understand. Whenever a player
...

Stop right there. I can't measure luckiness for one player. Also, the holes are the subject of study, not the players.

I look at dozens, preferably hundreds of rounds of data for an entire course (or several courses). Over that many players, a hole that gives out a large amount of random punishment or random reward - relative to the other holes in the same study - can be identified.

I don't think I can tell whether the cause is too much punishment or too much reward, but I'd bet most of the time it's punishment.

 

[SD86]

Just saw the Round 1 FPO video posted on Youtube. Thanks for posting it. Decent debut commenting by Valarie Jenkins Doss, and I hope she can and will do more commenting.

 

[brutalbrutus]

More FPO vids up...

 

[Martin Dewgarita]

About 15 years ago, I killed a pigeon at Vista del Camino with a roller. It didn't explode like the one randy Johnson hit, but it was just as dead.

You may have just admitted to Felony Animal Abuse...

The only difference here is the poor boy didn't kill it with the initial hit, so he had to take measures to put it out of its misery. You're just lucky instagram didn't exist..

http://fox6now.com/2018/03/09/teen-cited-over-instagram-video-showing-him-kill-duck-with-golf-club/

 

[swhite]

You may have just admitted to Felony Animal Abuse...

The only difference here is the poor boy didn't kill it with the initial hit, so he had to take measures to put it out of its misery. You're just lucky instagram didn't exist..

http://fox6now.com/2018/03/09/teen-cited-over-instagram-video-showing-him-kill-duck-with-golf-club/

If a person accidentally hits a pigeon with a disc that is rolling down the fairway, I would put it in approximately the same category as unintentionally running over a squirrel that runs out in front of your car. Felony Animal Abuse is probably a bit strong.

 

[Martin Dewgarita]

If a person accidentally hits a pigeon with a disc that is rolling down the fairway, I would put it in approximately the same category as unintentionally running over a squirrel that runs out in front of your car. Felony Animal Abuse is probably a bit strong.

Sure. Now what if the roller only critically maimed the pigeon and you used a destroyer to put it out of its misery? Or what if the squirrel didn't quite die when you ran it over so you backed back over it to finish it off.

 

[F.Luke]

^Oy. What if you shot the squirrel, skinned it, ate it, tanned the hide and then used the fur to fashion fishing lures which you subsequently torment fish with sometimes even killing and eating a few of them?

Felony animal abuse? That's a bit absurd.