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2023 Innova Blue Ridge Championship at North Cove (DGPT Silver)

That is definitely not killer instinct or winning attitude like McBeth.

"Everyone has a game plan until they punched in the mouth" - Mike Tyson

Straw man argument - nobody ever confused BW with PMcB, lol.

It's a humble man who knows his limitations. Plus it was a torrential downpour, not a time to take unnecessary risks. People were taking 11's and higher on that hole. And the top 6 on Sunday all took bogey or worse.

I would have loved to see what would have happened in better conditions like everyone else.

In this case getting punched in the mouth would have meant dropping several places due to being wreckless.
 
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Straw man argument - nobody ever confused BW with PMcB, lol.

It's a humble man who knows his limitations. Plus it was a torrential downpour, not a time to take unnecessary risks. People were taking 11's and higher on that hole. And the top 6 on Sunday all took bogey or worse.

I would have loved to see what would have happened in better conditions like everyone else.

In this case getting punched in the mouth would have meant dropping several places due to being wreckless.
It's not reckless to go for it on hole 17.
 
It's not reckless to go for it on hole 17.

445 foot hole with tight OB and hazards around the green, in a torrential downpour.

It didn't surprise me that he laid up because it was exactly what he said he would do in his post game interview on Saturday. He said he would play to keep his position if it came down to the last 2 holes because they didn't suit his game.

It's easy to gamble with someone else's money.
 
445 foot hole with tight OB and hazards around the green, in a torrential downpour.

It didn't surprise me that he laid up because it was exactly what he said he would do in his post game interview on Saturday. He said he would play to keep his position if it came down to the last 2 holes because they didn't suit his game.

It's easy to gamble with someone else's money.
No guts, no glory. It was just drizzle on hole 17. You can still get a 3 on it with OB or hazard.
 
No guts, no glory. It was just drizzle on hole 17. You can still get a 3 on it with OB or hazard.


Sure he could have, but that was not his game plan. He did exactly what he said he was going to do. And his plan would have worked, had Buhr not lit up the course with a 9 down. Hats off to the kid.

Just curious, you are being harsh, no?

It seems maybe you have something personal against BW, or do you simply condone playing balls to the wall, whether the situation calls for it or not? No guts no glory, killer instinct, etc...? You keep throwing out one jab at BW after the next.

Dude did finish second in a silver series event against some great competition and you insult him for not being McBeth. Color me confused.
 
Sure he could have, but that was not his game plan. He did exactly what he said he was going to do. And his plan would have worked, had Buhr not lit up the course with a 9 down. Hats off to the kid.

Just curious, you are being harsh, no?

It seems maybe you have something personal against BW, or do you simply condone playing balls to the wall, whether the situation calls for it or not? No guts no glory, killer instinct, etc...? You keep throwing out one jab at BW after the next.

Dude did finish second in a silver series event against some great competition and you insult him for not being McBeth. Color me confused.
It's both shocking decision making and boring disc golf to watch as a fan like the commentators talk about...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUfv1pe0sFc#t=38m20s
 
It's both shocking decision making and boring disc golf to watch as a fan like the commentators talk about...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUfv1pe0sFc#t=38m20s

Ok so you have selective hearing too. And you keep bouncing around from hole to hole and scenario to scenario. Sure seems like you are set and it isn't worth continuing this.

The non A team announcers just moments before said "one of the hardest holes we have seen in some of the worst conditions we have seen". "..granted that's a one in 500 chance (BW would have throw it in, but you know why not..." "...the worst conditions I have ever had to film disc golf in..."

And you choose to cherry pick him saying "...at the time I was shocked to see that..."

You didn't help your argument much.

My opinion is the boring golf stemmed from not giving the players a hole 18 worth taking a shot on. I agree no one wants to see an anti-climactic finish, but it isn't fair for you to expect someone to gamble for your benefit. Hopefully next year they make some tweeks to make it more entertaining. Over all it was a great course and a great tournament.
 
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Ok so you have selective hearing too. And you keep bouncing around from hole to hole and scenario to scenario. Sure seems like you are set and it isn't worth continuing this.

The non A team announcers just moments before said "one of the hardest holes we have seen in some of the worst conditions we have seen". "..granted that's a one in 500 chance (BW would have throw it is, but you know why not..." "...the worst conditions I have ever had to film disc golf in..."

And you choose to cherry pick him saying "...at the time I was shocked to see that..."

You didn't help your argument much.
You are the one using ad hominen and non-factual arguments in a debate.

I was shocked he didn't go for it on 17, but your "B team" commentator expressed my sentiment on hole 18, but somehow I'm cherry picking and being harsh.
 
Oh lawdy...you are now pulling in the Foundation dudes, lol.

You know what they say...lol...opinions are like buttholes, everyone has one and they all stink.

Have a great night.
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Sure he could have, but that was not his game plan. He did exactly what he said he was going to do. And his plan would have worked, had Buhr not lit up the course with a 9 down. Hats off to the kid.

Just curious, you are being harsh, no?

It seems maybe you have something personal against BW, or do you simply condone playing balls to the wall, whether the situation calls for it or not? No guts no glory, killer instinct, etc...? You keep throwing out one jab at BW after the next.

Dude did finish second in a silver series event against some great competition and you insult him for not being McBeth. Color me confused.
Yet as a fan I was wanting him to win and felt that changing the game plan on 17 gave him a high % to win or not do worse. Have you never seen sports fans criticize their favorite team/players when they lose or don't win?

ricky-bobby-will-ferell.gif

 
You are the one using ad hominen and non-factual arguments in a debate.

I was shocked he didn't go for it on 17, but your "B team" commentator expressed my sentiment on hole 18, but somehow I'm cherry picking and being harsh.


Exactly. You are conveniently ignoring everything else the announcer has said, and for that matter conveniently ignoring everything I have said.

So this is no debate, it is just a sidewinder diatribe. Which really shocks me. You have always seemed like a decent guy and helpful. As far as you claiming BW is your favorite player and you rooting for him, I have no words...

You accusing me of being non factual?! The fact is Bradley Williams stated his game plan on Saturday in his post round interview and played it out exactly like he said he would. Which I have repeated at least 3 times and you have conveniently ignored. You are like the Adam Savage quote - I ignore your reality and replace it with my own. lmao.

You are being non factual and harsh by stating your opinion of how he should have played. I'm done with this, life is too short to waste going around in circles with someone who refuses to have an honest conversation, lol.
 
Alright so.

When Bradley Williams steps up to hole 17 he is 2 strokes behind Gannon, but Gannon has not completed 18 yet. I don't have the timing exactly here, but in Bradley's mind maybe there is a chance Gannon could birdie or he could take a big number (lots of 6+). If Gannon birdies then Bradley can't catch up without a miraculous 400' throw-in for eagle on 18 or an ace on 17, if Gannon takes a big number then it makes Bradley's safe play very smart.

He decides to lay up on 17 and play aggressive on 18, he thinks he's more likely to take himself out of contention by bogeying 17 than he is to give himself the stroke(s) he needs by birdieing it.

This decision is debatable; we saw good players overturn their drives going for it and bogey, but we also saw people go for it and leak OB in c1 and take an easy par, theoretically he should be able to play for the safe miss and give himself a high chance of a par with an aggressive play. But he felt he was better off going for 18.

The rain starts picking up and by the time they get to hole 18s tee Gannon has finished with a bogey. Bradley Williams is now 1 stroke clear of Kyle and 1 stroke back of Gannon.

On 18s tee he plays aggressive but doesn't quite execute his shot, it looks a bit nose up, or not turned enough. He manages to stay inbounds but is quite far away and extremely unlikely to be able to get to the island. As he progresses down the fairway the rain becomes a monsoon, rain is so heavy that you can barely see 200' down the fairway, but he knows he needs a birdie to get to a playoff.

With no clear shot, Bradley lays up, probably hoping to give himself a 80-100' jumper, but he ends up 150' short.

By the time he gets to his lie Kyle has laid up 3 times and has a 90' jumper onto the island, it's likely he'll get a 5 and possible he'll get a 4. Calvin is on the island putting for 5 and should be a non-factor.

Bradley has 2 options; try a throw in or lay up again and play for 5. If he lays up he is pretty much guaranteed a 5 on the hole and barring a 90' jump putt make from Kyle (possible, but unlikely) he'll take solo 2nd place. If he tries a throw-in he has a small chance at birdie, small chance at par (doesn't go in but sticks the island) and most likely takes a 6.

The most likely scenario (Bradley takes 6, Kyle 5) means he gets T2nd, loses $293 and 2.5 tour points. He could also take a 6 and Kyle 4 and then he gets solo 3rd, loses $595 and 5 tour points. Remember that last year the difference between being qualified and in the play-ins for the DGPT finals was 3.04 points.

Of course, if he does make the throw-in he has a chance of getting an extra $1000 and 7.5 tour points.

Now, Bradley decided to lay up and Kyle ran his putt long and missed the comeback taking a 6.

I think you can argue with plenty of his decisions, but remember that he was trying to go for 18 on his drive, but due to a fluffed shot or the conditions affecting him he didn't get to where he needed to. His 2nd shot on 18 was a layup but probably hoping to give himself a look at a birdie still. His 3rd shot was probably a hard decision playing the odds, knowing he had a chance to lose $585 and 5 tour points, judging that to be more likely and important than the outside chance of gaining $1000 and 7.5 tour points (not to mention a win).

Personally, I think playing safe on 17 was probably a mistake, he could not have predicted the weather but it seems like a hole where birdie and par are much easier than on 18. I also think that the gain vs potential loss was big enough on his 3rd on 18 that he should've gone for it, but the conditions were terrrrible and I understand the choice.

Regardless, I think it's more nuanced than most people make it out to be.
 
I didn't watch it unfold, but Elle's post really lays it out pretty well. Definitely a difficult situation Williams was in.
 
I didn't watch it unfold, but Elle's post really lays it out pretty well. Definitely a difficult situation Williams was in.

For me, that is key. It was his decision. He made it and he is okay with how it turned out.

PMB has basically said that finishes no longer matter to him. He is out there to win and pretty much plays based on "if ya ain't first you're last. "

The luxury of being one of two players in the goat discussion I guess.

As great as Ricky is, I think it was last year that he played TX states following a game plan. The announcers talked about it specifically. I can't fault BW for sticking to his plan.
 
Several items in this scenario:

- Bradley had already stated he wouldn't go for it because he knew the scoring odds on those holes and specifically with his skills

- In golf, you're still playing against the course no matter the scores of opponents

- Players have no legitimate way to influence the scores of other players other than psychological presence. In this case and a few other events, the contenders/winners have not even been on the same card so the early finisher coming from behind gets a slight edge (still a fan of shotgun as a better format than tee times in final round where field cut to 72)

- The current game design does not (yet) provide risk/reward elements to gain multiple extra strokes (other than rare ace/eagles) with hero throws, only elements to lose extra strokes and, in this case, multiple extra strokes on each throw.

- Vegas would give the odds to Bradley of 10% chance to tie with birdie and 50% to win playoff for a net $1000 difference between 1st and 2nd cash. Multiplying percentages, BW would expect to net $1000, 1 in 20 tries if he tried to birdie.

- If he misses the island OB 90% of the time, he either loses: $0 (somehow still beats Kyle), $295 (tie w/Kyle), $800 (3rd alone), or $900 (T3 w/Calvin)

- BWs at a point in his career where the probable cash loss is more important than a very small chance to win. However, if their situation were reversed, I suspect Gannon (starting career) would go for it to try and catch BW.

- This scenario is a cautionary tale regarding certain types of wagers should gambling become more prominent for DG. It will be important to understand and track each player's behavior in addition to listening to their plans and following through. You'll have some players who have wins and don't need the extra money because their finances are okay, some who are more rational about "playing against the course" and know their odds, and some who are hungry for the win and play aggressively despite the odds.
 
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Look what happened to James Conrad on hole 18 in round 2 (#36 on the chart).

Any system - whether it's financial, manufacturing, ecological restoration, or electrical - that produces that kind of output is broken.

There is no such thing as a best strategy for a nonsensical situation.
 
Exactly. You are conveniently ignoring everything else the announcer has said, and for that matter conveniently ignoring everything I have said.

So this is no debate, it is just a sidewinder diatribe. Which really shocks me. You have always seemed like a decent guy and helpful. As far as you claiming BW is your favorite player and you rooting for him, I have no words...

You accusing me of being non factual?! The fact is Bradley Williams stated his game plan on Saturday in his post round interview and played it out exactly like he said he would. Which I have repeated at least 3 times and you have conveniently ignored. You are like the Adam Savage quote - I ignore your reality and replace it with my own. lmao.

You are being non factual and harsh by stating your opinion of how he should have played. I'm done with this, life is too short to waste going around in circles with someone who refuses to have an honest conversation, lol.
I haven't ignored anything, just giving my opinion on it which is different than yours. The commentator was talking about the last layup on 18 being a really long shot, that is not what I'm talking about here, I'm talking about hole 17 and the commentator expressed before that what I was thinking on 17 but on 18. I also don't think there is really a right or wrong here, just different philosophy.

You said it was a torrential downpour on 17, when in fact that didn't happen until after the drive on 18.

Elle's version implies that Bradley actually changed his game plan on hole 18 off the tee "getting aggressive", but then he changed it again after the result of that tee shot and the rain really started. So if what she says is true then he didn't in fact stick to his game plan which at that point IMO he made the right decision, after IMO a questionable decision to stick with it on 17 which was a much safer hole to go for it. The commentators mentioned that Bradley always checks the score, but why would anyone do that if they were going to stick to the plan no matter what? So something doesn't add up here.
 

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