~400' BH and ~325' FH Help

[sidewinder22]

I think part of the problem is your grip/too over the top. The nose is up coming into your center. You hold your arm weird at address and throughout the backswing where your shoulder is internally rotated the entire time.

 

[sidewinder22]

Just saw your last post and yeah, I've said somewhere before that my putting got better by making it more like my drive.

 

[slowplastic]

I think part of the problem is your grip/too over the top. The nose is up coming into your center. You hold your arm weird at address and throughout the backswing where your shoulder is internally rotated the entire time.

Yeah I feel and see that, especially the arm part. My hand is too over the flight plate/angled I think you're meaning by over the top? Or I am moving my body over the top because of my grip being nose up? Either way I feel the grip weirdness and the arm turned internally.

Now that I have identified what was good about these throws I can feel how to keep more neutral for next time and trust it. It almost feels like I'll be more underhanding it instead of turning my wrist or arm back internally and then snapping them at the end. I think this internal arm rotation at address is why I was feeling all that supination on the way forward during the actual throw.

And I don't think I would actually be "underhanding" the shot, just compared to my typical disc/forearm above elbow that's likely why it feels that way. Kind of like is a spush putt an underhand or just a good transfer and pop/extension. Then likely add more momentum so the arm is higher...won't look that way anymore. I think this is the pendulum, just me feeling it relative to my own perspectives.

Just saw your last post and yeah, I've said somewhere before that my putting got better by making it more like my drive.

Yeah I remember you making some comparisons and crossover between them, but until I felt it this much I didn't realize how forward my body would face and in front the extension would be. The thumb push/finger spring feel makes sense in my putt, so it also makes sense that that'd be closer to where the throw would end up too.

The front shoulder leaning forward feel makes me think of Eric Oakley or Eviina Salonen, but in actuality I don't think it's that extreme at all. It just feels very different compared to what I've done forever.

Does it make sense to feel like the hit point is in a similar place to in a putt, but because you are snapping through instead of just extending out, the release trajectory is like 20+ degrees closed? Like I feel a similar location and balance, but if I were to leverage through this point, the disc would go way off to the side compared to a putt.

Or am I going down a weird and not right rabbit hole?

 

[slowplastic]

This putt by Eagle is exactly what I'm meaning for transitioning between a putt and a throw feel, at 6:38. https://youtu.be/A5NLAwutrvM?t=398

I realize he jumps it too, but you can see how the putt style downward backswing is so far it's actually past both of his legs or at minimum to his rear thigh, rather than the more typical bringing the disc back to your core or centre. At this point the disc is turned/rotated so it's tilted down a bit, but because he's focused on the putt release at the hit point he knows he can get back to a straight trajectory so he doesn't care about or likely notice this tilt. In a full backswing where the torso turns away even further, then there could be a different type of rotation of the arm/disc.

Anyways, he loads back with the lead shoulder way down to the rear instep/leg but forward of everything and leading the way when he moves toward the target. He extends off the rear leg, the leg counters naturally, and he gets back to a normal putting release point to get that pop on the disc.

If this were an actual throw there would have been a more rotational load, and the ejection would have been more rightward relative to his foot positioning.

 

[sidewinder22]

Grip over top, although you are also going over the top coming into the plant and planting too staggered closed stance. I think you are trying turn too much. Wind up like a pitcher with the front leg kicking back and falling butt first and make a lefty submarine throw so your torso tilts forward over the rear knee. If you go forward from the pitching windup/kick the can you should land in open stance. Kick front heel toward the right/inside to wind up the hips internally. Kicking to the left/closed unwinds everything before the plant. The rightward/inside kick should pull your upper body into more athletic stance/more forward tilt.

If you standstill centered(feet inline) in athletic ready position tilted forward slightly over knees and make a fist with knuckles vertical (forget the disc) about 6" above navel and hand right next to your abs and arm/shoulder relaxed next to body/holding beverage, and as you shift slightly from center back and forth don't move your hand or arm, but feel a little uppercut action with the fist in the backswing and then mirror forward crossing center so your fist rotates palm up and palm down back and forth following the momentum of the shift, just a little 1" twitch/punch back and forth from your center.

Pendulum action smooths out the arm rotations. At the top of the backswing I want the opposite edge of the disc above my hand, or feel that way, like Steve Brinster. Everything just unwinds forward.

My address position of the drive/release point and finish position of push putt are about the same with arm/thumb straight out to target standing on one leg.

 

[sidewinder22]

It is the same pop from my center.

 

[slowplastic]

Excellent. I don't think I quite follow the part with how the hand rotates slightly palm up/down when shifting back and forth between the feet slightly, so either I don't get the setup or exactly the drill. But everything else is understood and very helpful.

Planting to the right to get more load and shoulder tilt makes a ton of sense, I can feel that it's better so I will try to eliminate that left drift. Now that I feel how the shoulder loads forward if I stride more straight/right my arm wants to come right past my core and it feels so much faster than going around my body. Especially if I'm stepping into my own way and then have to go around that too.

I can feel how I was going shoulder first over top too, and I can feel how to get a lower body lead in the shift but still be shoulder ahead as I turn forward. Feels very elastic like through my body, rather than pushing into a sling.

This is all good, I am just feeling why I want to be in the right spot instead of going through a checklist of positions. Kind of like how on my FH I don't have to think much, it just works if I think about weight shift and hit.

 

[slowplastic]

Ok had some progress but I can keep chipping away at it now that I've felt better things. I think I was getting more spin on the disc from the farther forward hit point because everything was acting more true stable. I could throw neutral-understable discs like putters/Comet/FD in a surprising amount of wind, and get good carry with neutral-overstable stuff through headwinds rather than needing to go to 100% OS molds.

I started off by popping putts really concentrating on the finger spring and getting a clean hit point. Then turned that into spin putt approaches. Then halfway putt-throws that actually were easy to control. Then standstill throws that maintained that same ejection feel and got very easy carry. This all felt more like a gradient of the same type of thing than it has for me before.

Two questions:

I know SW has talked about bracing the opposite shoulder to each instep. I can really feel my lead shoulder load into my rear foot as I turn back. I think he is totally right about me over-spinning or rotating too much on the way forward, if I mimic that feel moving to the left for my FH shot it feels terrible if my right shoulder keeps coming through instead of releasing the arm. So on a RHBH, should my left shoulder feel like it comes to my right instep/brace and the shoulder itself is the cause of the swim move?

Basically, is the rear shoulder the fundamental part that feels that brace/swim move counter? I know it's been shown with the upper arm/elbow, but does it also feel like the shoulder itself is involved? This is feeling intuitive to me right now swinging levers, but not having tried that with a disc.

Second,
For the feel in the hand of a high-level shot, is the "palm ejection" feeling that has been talked about in the past a thing? Like should the disc feel like it gets pulled into my palm at some point if I know I'm really getting all of it? If this is a thing that "should" happen for everyone on high level throws, does this feel happen as the disc is coming into that final arc like the disc's mass gets pulled into your hand just before the fingers then pull it around? Or is the palm ejection felt as the disc leaves your hand, like a push on the way out?

I realize and agree overall body position and mechanics are most important, but I'm feeling more action around the hit point than I have in the past so I'm trying to get a handle on when I'm doing something closer to right or not.

 

[Dan Ensor]

I've had questions about palm ejection too. The disc is supposed to be moving faster than my hand at release, right? So I can't push with my palm at release, right?


Also, you mentioned tilting the disc to accomplish nose down; wondering if you've messed with thumb push any?

 

[slowplastic]

Also, you mentioned tilting the disc to accomplish nose down; wondering if you've messed with thumb push any?

I'm feeling this more than before, and it's a natural thing when I do. I try to keep in mind that anything that "all" the good throwers do, they do because it naturally feels correct. They likely didn't have to read nerdy discussions to get that feel, yet they do it.

So I'm feeling that a bit more, kind of like how SW says he guides the disc with his thumb. Best I can describe what it feels to me sometimes is like in a putt when your thumb is on the flight plate, and you get that finger bounce and the thumb helps pop the disc out/forward. It pushes on the flight plate away from you but it's not like thumb is the only thing pushing the disc.

I'm kind of feeling it as my hand/disc swings out away from me, like there is a little pressure on the thumb and the disc wants to spring flat/forward. It's not in every shot as my hit point isn't perfect.

Also I wasn't having to tilt the disc as much today in the backswing and forward swing so I wasn't feeling as much of a supination/push back to flat near release, but was still getting nose down flights. The extreme feel I had with the disc turn was because I was setting up with my arm/shoulder turned inward before the shot as SW noticed, so I'd have to have it turn back a lot to get back to nose down and a decent release point.

Anyways, to summarize thumb push is feeling like that pop/push on the flight plate during a putt. I hope that's what it should be like?

 

[Dan Ensor]

Anyways, to summarize thumb push is feeling like that pop/push on the flight plate during a putt. I hope that's what it should be like?

Maybe . . . honestly if you talk about putting you're going to lose me lol

It wasn't something I had to focus on RH, but when I switched to LH everything was nose up until I really focused on it. The feeling I'm trying to have is like crushing a Tums between my thumb and pointer finger; you aren't just going to push straight down into it; you're going to grind it with your thumb pushing forward.

A buddy I played with needed to throw LH for a couple of weeks, and it helped a similar issue for him.

 

[sidewinder22]

It almost literally is a submarine pitch but mirrored backhand so the back of the front shoulder swings forward instead of the front of the back shoulder swinging forward. Pitcher starts with big proud chest and compresses chest into finish. Backhand starts with compressed chest(GG/PP/Avery -starting with hands crossed) and finishes with big proud chest and hands separated.

A pitcher starts with the glove/left arm swimming the body forward and tucks into center which ripples out the right shoulder bigger/faster to arm/disc. Backhand is the mirrored with the left arm, tuck in then swim out. Both have left shoulder tight radius, right shoulder big radius - whip the back side of the right shoulder forward.

You rotate so far back around that your left elbow is closer to target than your center and even though you keep the arm close to body, it's going out around you during the swing instead of anchoring your center, so your shoulders spin more as a unit in place, rather than getting the right shoulder swing forward bigger than left shoulder. Your rear hand continues forward thru instead of swimming the rest of the body forward. In door frame dill, left elbow should never be behind your back if all your weight is leveraging forward.

I never feel the disc in my palm, I hold it as far out of the palm as possible for bigger whip.

 

[slowplastic]

A pitcher starts with the glove/left arm swimming the body forward and tucks into center which ripples out the right shoulder bigger/faster to arm/disc. Backhand is the mirrored with the left arm, tuck in then swim out. Both have left shoulder tight radius, right shoulder big radius - whip the back side of the right shoulder forward.

...so your shoulders spin more as a unit in place, rather than getting the right shoulder swing forward bigger than left shoulder.

This is excellent. I can feel this, and I remember a month or two ago when I was getting left shoulder forward in BH as my focus and I was lacing line drives easy. One ThB shot in particular was high-level power line drive, 45' deeper than normal at no more effort on pure pushing hyzer.

So I understand how this happens, the shoulders are spinning centered around the spine, right? But translationally in space, the left shoulder is moving in a more linear path toward the plant so the right shoulder moves on a longer path through space?

And in the RHBH backswing the right shoulder is mirrored moving on a shorter path to the rear foot in feel, so this is why it feels like it remains still locationally as you move forward and load?

 

[sidewinder22]

This is excellent. I can feel this, and I remember a month or two ago when I was getting left shoulder forward in BH as my focus and I was lacing line drives easy. One ThB shot in particular was high-level power line drive, 45' deeper than normal at no more effort on pure pushing hyzer.

So I understand how this happens, the shoulders are spinning centered around the spine, right? But translationally in space, the left shoulder is moving in a more linear path toward the plant so the right shoulder moves on a longer path through space?

And in the RHBH backswing the right shoulder is mirrored moving on a shorter path to the rear foot in feel, so this is why it feels like it remains still locationally as you move forward and load?

I agree with the first part.

Right shoulder swings back in backswing the same as forward with longer than left shoulder swing. Left shoulder feels centered back and forth, right shoulder swings back and forth wider, like it would be wider all the way around.

 

[slowplastic]

This is the most promising my throw has looked, it gives me hope I'll be able to get to a high level form...hopefully in the near future.

I swung a hammer and bat around a lot as practice to feel that pendulum and really try to understand why my righty golf swing plane is good, but I can't do it moving toward my right leg/RHBH direction. Mirroring it back and forth and then having one hand on a baseball bat at the taper of the barrel helped me feel how to anchor my hips and pull the bat through RHBH.

I then threw a bunch of upward turnovers/anny shots today, and that helped me feel how to go from low to high but still needing to keep the nose down. I think throwing anny/turnover was more useful for me because it exposed if I had nose up or down more than a hyzer, and also throwing the flatter/anny release made me stand more upright.

First clip is a low power turnover, it felt very natural. It took much a bunch of shots to figure out how to throw close to flat without too much hyzer, and then a bunch more shots to feel how to keep the disc down instead of throwing too high/slight stall. Second clip is a lower trajectory slight hyzer release that felt good.

I did get ahold of a couple of 10' high hyzer flips today with this feel that got very good carry, made my mid look like a fairway in flight.

But it's hard to figure out that nose angle swing/pivot at the last instant...it either feels like I need to get a long arm extension to really get the disc "forward" and then it stays low. It either feels like arm extension with a very nice and upright body, rear knee under hip. Or, a few throws felt like I had more torso lean forward and that helped me stay over the disc as it extended away from me, keeping it down.

This was the first day I've had my throw look like this so I'd like to know what to aim for. I also know I am still drifting like 4-6" too leftward on my plant step when I throw with any power.

https://vimeo.com/347830176

https://vimeo.com/347830253

 

[sidewinder22]

You are a little behind your left foot as your front foot crosses forward and really cranking your left elbow behind you instead of turning your hips/body more. Your left elbow ends up flying out around instead of being in tight.

You want to drive your hips forward laterally sooner in the stride - Hershyzer and Kick the Can and keep your rear elbow forward in front of your body/chest in backswing instead of behind your back.

If you standstill and put your left hand on inner thigh like Marc Jarvis and make a backswing, the front shoulder should swing back straight back and the left shoulder will clear out the way to the left(not back around targetward) out of the way while still leveraged. If you pause at the top of the backswing both shoulders stack over rear foot, then leverage everything together forward laterally closed with arm/disc lagged back as you go to plant/crush the can.

 

[slowplastic]

Yeah I am aware of that silly rear elbow going away from target...

If you standstill and put your left hand on inner thigh like Marc Jarvis and make a backswing, the front shoulder should swing back straight back and the left shoulder will clear out the way to the left(not back around targetward) out of the way while still leveraged. If you pause at the top of the backswing both shoulders stack over rear foot, then leverage everything together forward laterally closed with arm/disc lagged back as you go to plant/crush the can.

This feels much better. Makes sense that I can't make the left shoulder turn targetward in backswing...because then its next step has to be to turn back the same path which is farther away from the target. Another ingrained bad habit I somehow got from that Schusterick driving tutorial years ago.

Just to be clear, by my left shoulder clearing to the left...do you mean kind of away from the target as in to the left of my initial standstill setup from my own perspective?

Either way, this gave me a new cue to be way more leveraged on the rear leg and I feel like I have to move targetward more easily, which goes with what you are saying.

 

[sidewinder22]

Correct your left.

 

[RandyC]

It almost literally is a submarine pitch but mirrored backhand so the back of the front shoulder swings forward instead of the front of the back shoulder swinging forward.

As an example: backhanding a bowling ball, where the back of your hand leads the ball and the swing arc gets wider and finishes upwards? Instead of a pulling motion where you collapse your arm into your arm pit? If I understood that correctly?

 

[sidewinder22]

As an example: backhanding a bowling ball, where the back of your hand leads the ball and the swing arc gets wider and finishes upwards? Instead of a pulling motion where you collapse your arm into your arm pit? If I understood that correctly?

Yep.