"amateurs", cathegories, how can we improve them?

[Toro71]

stop acting like you know better when you have no real experience with any of it.

LOL. Got it.

 

[Magicweed]

I am very new to the sport of disc golf, having played for only 6 weeks, but I have still had the chance to compete in my first tournament. Overall, I feel like the current format for divisions within the sport is both appropriate and (when followed) allows for an excellent level of competition. I'm sure at my first event there were a good number of people that were playing up a division, based on either ego or peer pressure, but the lead cards for every division were very close and well matched. Being new to the sport, I played in MA3 and thankfully placed third in that division. Of the people on the lead card there was myself (3 weeks into playing disc golf), a 12 year old, another person that had their own basket and had been playing for a few years as well as two other guys. One of them said they had been playing disc golf for the last 17 years casually, but only now decided to start playing in tournaments. Despite our varying ages, experience levels and training/commitment to getting better, our lead card had a difference of 9 strokes from 1st place to 5th place. The difference between 5th and 6th place was 12 strokes. We were playing against the players that were closest to our skill level regardless of any other factors.

When looking at all the other divisions from the event, I noticed a very similar trend as well. The lead card and chase card were typically very closely matched, but beyond that, things tend to taper off as you find more and more competitors out of their element. My third place finish in my first event ever was enough to place me in the middle of the pack in MA2 without issue, but will I be moving up next time? No. Why not? Because where I am at is my current level of competition. As I get better over time I will score better, place higher and eventually accumulate wins in my division and when the ratings dictate that I should move up I will be more than happy to. I will do the same thing in MA2, placing higher and hopefully winning until the ratings dictate I move to MA1, regardless of whether I'm accused of being a bagger or not.

Again, I realize that I am very new to this sport, and I have only been in one event so far, but my goal in athletics has always been to increase my skills as much as possible. In disc golf, I want to be a 1000+ rated player, but the path to that includes all divisions, practice and working to beat the players at my current level, not only locally, but nationally. I want to be on the lead card for the USADGC, and when I finally decide to play open division, I want to be on the lead card for A-tier and NT level events in open division. Will I ever make it to that level? Who knows, but the ratings and divisions are a good guideline that when used appropriately lead to competitive play. When people let their ego, or the opinion of someone else, get in the way is when things start to go south. This means that when I'm playing at a level to compete with those at a national event in my division, there is a high likelihood that the people at my local B-tier and C-tier events are going to call me a bagger. What those local people won't see is what my goals are for myself and they will simply judge me based on their emotions. I'm fine with that, but their emotions don't dictate whether I am playing in the right division or not. Statistical analysis, based on past play, is a far better indicator of where I should be playing than whether someone feels I'm too good.

 

[keith johnson]

Nothing in the PDGA's regulations is stopping folks from running such an event.

The thing many of you clamoring for fewer divisions aren't coming to terms with is that you don't want to make that tournament possible by adding that option for yourselves. You want to make it possible by taking away options from others and force them to use your system.

I responded to Mashnut with an example as he asked for and was ignored - and I quote your post for the same reason - I run and have done so for 17 years my Events the way I want to and within what the PDGA allows ANY TD to do.

The PDGA allows you to run ANY Event the way YOU like within their rules - which are basically "give us money to sanction and list it and don't cause us any problems"

There should NEVER be a problem in any part of the country for anyone to accomplish the same thing.......

I'm not gonna quote someone saying they want examples a 3rd day in a row - so enjoy this post and make it last a while.

 

[mashnut]

Your example supported my point, I'm not sure what response you wanted. You talked about an event where you offered several divisions and got good turnout, not an event that had only 1 or 2 divisions and still got good turnout.

I agree that the current system allows for a lot of experimentation, I'm glad you've found a system that works for your area. Enough kudos?

 

[keith johnson]

Your example supported my point, I'm not sure what response you wanted. You talked about an event where you offered several divisions and got good turnout, not an event that had only 1 or 2 divisions and still got good turnout.

I agree that the current system allows for a lot of experimentation, I'm glad you've found a system that works for your area. Enough kudos?

No - You asked for examples of series that LIMITED divisions and I gave you that.....plus the bonus invitational which limits players....:clap: of which both ideas supported as well as answered your question.

And I was the only one to do so :thmbup:.......The beauty is that ANY idea can work ANYWHERE in the World - you just have to do it....:clap:

Keith

 

[New013]

I responded to Mashnut with an example as he asked for and was ignored - and I quote your post for the same reason - I run and have done so for 17 years my Events the way I want to and within what the PDGA allows ANY TD to do.

The PDGA allows you to run ANY Event the way YOU like within their rules - which are basically "give us money to sanction and list it and don't cause us any problems"

There should NEVER be a problem in any part of the country for anyone to accomplish the same thing.......

Awesome, hopefully more people who want this will follow suit and offer these types of events.

So Keith, how would you feel if a bunch of people started pushing for the PDGA to get rid of the way you like to run your tournaments? Do you think a TD such as yourself should have the option to run it as they see fit or should other people have the power to tell you how to run your events?

 

[steven2361]

Skill level and rating is arbitrary. The difference between 1000 rated and top pro's is the same as 1000 to 950. The system was just set up to make 1000 rated seem amazing.

There are 3 important points that I haven't heard a good answer to for Am payout, multiple divisions, etc.

1. Am payouts pay for the expansion of local disc golf.
While disc golf is light on sponsorships, local clubs need the proffit from payout to support building and maintaining courses and clubs or at least break even on the tourny prep, etc. Trophy/players pack only tournaments net no additional proffit to the club. Overtime, players would expect lower entry fees and all money would be spent on the trophies, players pack, and prep to prepare the courses for the event.

2. Payout encourages trial and proliferation of discs from new molds or manufacturers. Smaller companies do not have the funding to donate to players packs. Players do not have the knowledge of all the discs enough to purchase them unless money comes from payout. Eliminating payout or the number of people payed out would absolutly restrict growth of the product side. I am almost 990 rated, play all over the country and I would know 0 about anything but Innova if it werent for payouts. As it stands, I could tell you something about 10 discraft and maybe 5 other discs. I would not purchase other discs online; never, if it wasnt for trialing them from a payout. I have never received (outside of worlds, sunking tournaments, and Am nats) a disc other than Innova in a players pack.

3. We as players are able to purchase discs and smaller manufacturers are able to sell them because we have great club stock, online retailers, and traveling proshops. Without payouts, there would be no Dynamic Discs, LS Discs, and probably Sunking would struggle. They have made a business and grown to even manufacture discs and sponsor players because they are running tournaments and handling the payout.

-------
In my mind 95% of the arguements I hear are from Am players that do not like losing to someone better than them or from pro players who want more in the pool so their payout is bigger. Again, like I've said before, it is like high rated Am's arguing against Rec and Intermediate. And arguing for 1 Am division (so that payout is bigger in Am fields).

AND - I'm 35, have a corporate level mangement type job, a 5 year degree plus an MBA. Im conservative and wear collared shirts to play. When I throw a round, I have to ice my arm that evening to be able to play again the next day. I envy the 500' 16 year olds and the great putters. I copmete against them by being smart and plugging away. Many holes I cannot birdie, but I don't push for a "throw under 400'" division.
I have to play with these so called "punk flat brims that have their parents pay for everything" up close. These kids have skills and most of them are nice and down to earth. Infact, I can't think of a time where I didnt enjoy playing with them. I'd prefer most of them to the rude smelly drunks and pot heads that play in ripped up shorts and dirty tee shirts. It takes all kinds of people to make a community I don't appreciate some of the prejudging comments by misinformed and poor manored posters in this topic.

Well said.

 

[AndyJB]

I get so heated over these trivial issues. I dont know why. I think its because I do truly have a passion fir this aport. Ive been playing since I was seven years old.

I think the big takeaways from this thread are that someone just needs to try it and see. If it works, I can accept it. But for now, I think the divisions are fine...but paying out Ams is not.

 

[Cgkdisc]

I agree true Ams shouldn't get payout, just player packs like ball golf. But PDGA divisions aren't truly Am divisions. They are Faux Ams playing for payout.

 

[tampora]

Is the word 'cathegory' used in some foreign dialect?

I think you mean to say: category.

Cathegory sounds like a horrible accident involving a catheter.

 

[tampora]

edit: oops. I see now: Switzerland. I even googled 'cathegory' and got no hits. ><

 

[tampora]

Cash/plastic payouts are not the sole reason sandbagging exists. It may not even be the largest reason.

The motivation to be crowned the champion of some particular division can be just as strong as a cash/plastic award. There is also the motivation to not be dubbed as one of the losers. These feelings exist whether or not there is a payout.

I'd really like to see surveys when signing up for a tournament. It would be very comical to see results saying 95% of open players feel amateurs should play trophy-only; meanwhile, 95% of amateur players would rather have players packs as an optional increase in registration fee and have Amateur entry fees remain in the amateur division for payouts.

Perhaps the survey results would be different, but we can only speculate. Which, is rather ineffectual.

Case in point: being colorblind, I only like to throw neon yellow discs; otherwise, I can't find them easily. But, it is rare that my player pack discs or my plastic award for "cashing" are this color, so I end up with a bunch of useless discs which I now have to try to barter with friends for something I can actually throw.

As an aside: I also still have the Ace Race 2012 sunglasses in their plastic wrapper. Maybe someday if I get contacts or laser surgery, I can try them out.

 

[AndyJB]

I agree true Ams shouldn't get payout, just player packs like ball golf. But PDGA divisions aren't truly Am divisions. They are Faux Ams playing for payout.

Absolutley correct....but I would think its also kind of a chicken or the egg deal. I really dont know when PDGA started doing Am payouts. It probably seemed like a pretty good idea at the time. But I think we are large enough now that we can entice more people by liwering entry fees and going trophy only then having payouts. My last payout was the Kooky Noosa tournament and I got 8 discs and a trophy....for finishing second place in Rec. It was an awesome, well-run tournament that I had a ton of fun playing in. But I take way more pride in the sweet trophy I got than the stack of plastic. But maybe thats just me?

I will also say that it was a huge tournament in an out of the way location with not a ton of divisions: Open, Advanced, Intermediate, Rec, one Juniors division, one Masters Division and One Ladies division. So its definetly possible to reduce some of the ancillary divisions. But I think, at minimum, keeping Advanced and Intermediate is a neccesity.

 

[rocthecourse]

My last payout was the Kooky Noosa tournament and I got 8 discs and a trophy....for finishing second place in Rec. It was an awesome, well-run tournament that I had a ton of fun playing in. But I take way more pride in the sweet trophy I got than the stack of plastic. But maybe thats just me?

8 discs and a trophy! By me you can win intermediate and maybe get $80 in funny money, and that wouldn't even get you 5 of the overpriced discs the TD has(unless you want DX.)

 

[keith johnson]

Awesome, hopefully more people who want this will follow suit and offer these types of events.

So Keith, how would you feel if a bunch of people started pushing for the PDGA to get rid of the way you like to run your tournaments? Do you think a TD such as yourself should have the option to run it as they see fit or should other people have the power to tell you how to run your events?

I'd do what I did in AZ when I asked for a waiver to allow me to run an event with a 940 -970 old school Pro2 division paying cash to the players in that Division whether Am or not (since the PDGA had discontinued Pro 2 after only 1 year)...They said no - so I ran it unsanctioned the way I wanted - It's really a no brainer - Run your Event any way you want within their rules, or run it unsanctioned the way you want.....
By the way that idea has now morphed years later into you can play pro, Cash, don't take cash but get same $ amount in plastic instead...:thmbdown::wall::wall::doh::gross:

If they would have given Pro 2 a longer chance to see what might have / could have happened, I personally think we'd see less complaining and a larger more competitive middle ground of PRO players (lower rated open, Masters, higher rated ADV) who now either always donate, or more likely don't play. And it would only HELP the OPEN field in the long run as some of those players would play themselves into OPEN by breaking 970...

I don't think that the way TD's are being allowed to run Events the way that's best for their areas will change, as it has been talked about before, but the issue that always comes up is that the PDGA NEEDS TD's - TD's do NOT need the PDGA to run Events as evidenced by the thousand plus unsanctioned Events held yearly.....Ratings, rules and consistency are some of the selling points to Sanctioned Events and after Ratings were started and took off - in some areas of the country if Events aren't sanctioned, players won't attend as they want Ratings!

Anyways - that's my take on 17 years of doing things - hopefully that helps you, and answered your questions....Keith

 

[1978]

970 is an arbitrary number. Where does this reach 970 rating and you are good enough to be "forced" pro come from. It is WAY WAY easier to go from 935 to 971 than it is to go from 970 to 1005 ... then you are still 40pts below elite. Why is bad to have elite top level players in a division? REgardless of where you put some silly artificial cap...there will be players at the top of that cap. I know plenty of perpetual 965 rated players, no matter how much they play....so you cap at 970, now that 965 player wins or is in the top 5 of every Am event...and everyone hates him. It just dilutes the quality of the golf in Am. Forcing people not ready to go pro, to be pro, dilutes the golf in pro divisions. Disc Golf is unique to many other sports and comparisons tend to not work, however, I will attempt to make this one. there are plenty of PGA golfers, very few are allowed to play in the numerous upper level events, the ones that do are very closely matched.

Pro 1 and Pro 2 might work to strengthen play of the 950-1015 golfer and ensure that large tournaments showcase the best talent ~ 1000+ rated golf. I actually really like the concept if it was used that way. The biggest issue, however, is there is not enough good golfers to make strong tournaments. In the future, there may be many more 1000+ rated players, and there may be real sponsors that infuse the sport with money. Its not happening now. All tournaments are looking to do is attract a few (10-15) top level players that will compete for the win (really only 5-6 of them have a chance), then fill the remaining spots with people that subsidize the payout. Disc golf has become boring. In PGA golf, anyone can compete to win, there is so much competition at lower levels, and so much participation only the best players bubble to the top to play in big tournaments. They are so closely matched that small things change the outcome. Disc golf is not there yet. The difference between a 1045 player and a 990 player might as well be the same as the difference between most of us and Tiger Woods. Its like the olympics accepting that dude from south Africa to compete in swimming a few games ago. He could barely float it diluted the sport and made it gimicky.

"I played pro and got to play with Nikko my first round." Isnt that what a 935 rated "pro" is trying to do? Just get a chance to gush and gawk at a great pro? So what? Thats not experience. You can play with Nikko locally, casually, whenever you want. All those guys are nice like that. After round 1, you are just playing the next 3 rounds with the same people you would have played with in Int, Adv, Pro 2, or what ever. Just hand Ricky $30 and go play casually. At least in Am you have a chance. With my ~980's rating I have been beat by numerous 925ish and up players. I think the year I finished well at Bowling Green, 2 of the players to beat me were in the 920's, and the winner was a 940 rated player. You will rarely ever see Ricky lose to a 970 rated player. Much less a 935. Tiger loses to the lowest person in the tournament from time to time. Thats how the sports differ. Thats why uncapped Am or lower tier Pro divisions are needed. The lowest rated person (reasonably) in a division, should have at least an outside chance of competing for a win. That only happens in the Am divisions where we tend to make dumb mistakes or fail to execute a shot. It is absolutly stupid to force someone pro that shoots the round of his life at a local tournament, it is also ridiculous to determine whether a player is able to get better. Ive been about the same rating for a year and a half. I may just not be able to get any better...but I need to be forced pro because my "rating" happens to be little more that 1 shot per round better than someone not forced pro. That is dumb.

 

[The Hammer]

Just think about all the time and effort you could save yourself by not having to maintain threads selling 200+ discs that you have won from all these am events.

Seriously though, rating aside, when you are regularly finishing near the top at the biggest Am events in the entire world; perhaps its time to move up. There are only a couple guys that refuse to do this.

 

[1978]

I haven't checked that thread in 6 months. But you are right, perhaps it is time. Time to refresh it and sell some more discs.

I will refuse to go pro, for as long as I wish, which at this time is forever, regardless of what division I actually play in, what the reward is, how I finish, or how many people complain.

 

[keith johnson]

1978......

Nobody ever FORCED anyone to play in PRO 2 -so I have no idea what you are talking about....PRO 2 was offered for AMS or lower rated pros to compete for CASH if they chose to - they could still play ADV if the wanted to - you were NOT forced up into PRO 2 - it was the same as what AMS are doing now - except they didn't have to pay OPEN fees, and got cash instead of merch.

 

[1978]

1978......

Nobody ever FORCED anyone to play in PRO 2 -so I have no idea what you are talking about....PRO 2 was offered for AMS or lower rated pros to compete for CASH if they chose to - they could still play ADV if the wanted to - you were NOT forced up into PRO 2 - it was the same as what AMS are doing now - except they didn't have to pay OPEN fees, and got cash instead of merch.

Pro 2 doesn't exist. If you read my post, I say that it is a good idea, a good transition from Am to pro idea. A way to contain Faux Pro's and then restrict access to Pro 1 to the very best. This can only happen with true sponsorship and $ for the top tier.

All other comments relate directly to the current debate of forcing someone over some rating to play in Open.

No sport should be built on the premise that players are forced to enter a pro division with 100% payout, effectively using 75% of the field to pay out the 6-10 players that win every weekend. All this does is take money from the majority of the players, the players growing the sport, and give it to a very small number sponsored players. For what purpose? So that traveling pro's can kind of break even, while they decide what to do when they turn 30? That money just goes to hotels, gas companies, and auto repair places. It does not go back into the sport. At least in Am you can do trophy only or if you do a players pack or merch $ a large portion of that entry goes back to the club or organization running the tournament, thus growing the sport. The players that are in the purchasing market try out and experience new plastics also growing the sport. If an Am is "winning" everything, at least 30-50% of their entry or winnings goes back to the event organizer.

Until we get better sponsorship outside of disc golf, I would even be on the side eliminating the Open or Pro division and giving everyone payout in Merch. How else do we grow a fledgling sport that is built on volunteer labor and local clubs raising funds to create courses. Give 110% to pros? No. Paying pro's and having more pro's takes even more money from the sport, retailers, and growth base. Disc Golf loses that money. Maybe 20 disc golfers "make" money. For everyone else it is a loss. I'd rather those funds be re-infused back into the sport, than to some fastfood company between NT's.