Avoiding elbow hyperextension on backhand

[Melonhusk]

Hi everyone, I'm currently resting two injured elbows. I hurt my right one over a long period of time and I hurt the left trying to learn lefty, when I had resigned myself to the fact that the right one was hurt. I was seeing a general PT for a while, who sort of exacerbated things with a too-aggressive rehab program, but I finally today saw a sports medicine doctor and got x-rays and whatnot. Right now I've got pain around the UCL area of both elbows, and on my right elbow pain in the back of it, sort of in the soft part where the tricep tendon gets to the olecranon.

The good news is that my UCLs and my bones are ok; the pain on the inside of my elbow he diagnosed as an overuse muscle injury irritating the ulnar nerve. The bad news is, he says that the pain in the back of my elbow comes from the fact that I apparently have a bit more range of motion in my elbow than is normal, which honestly was news to me. I can maybe get a degree or two past flat if I reeeally try to lock them out, but whatever it is, he said that it's going to make me more prone to hyperextension injuries.

I asked him if there was anything to do to prevent this, any exercises to add a bit of muscular resistance to that happening. He said no, which is hard to believe honestly, but whether that's true or not I thought I'd get all your thoughts on the technique side of things. Does the elbow need to extend fully on a backhand? Is that even normal? My shoulders I know are tight - I work a desk job - could that maybe be contributing?

I'm posting a link here to my righty form thread, if anyone's got the time to look at a few throws and see if maybe there are some signs that this is something avoidable. Not every throw hurt, even when it was bad - maybe one out of ten would cause pain and then I'd have some soreness after playing. And I do remember the first time I ever felt pain in that spot was when I tried to use too much arm in a putt; I know I locked my elbow out pretty hard on that one.

This is getting to be sort of a ramble, but any advice is appreciated! It'll be a long while before I can throw again, it'll help to have something to work on when I eventually try to come back.

 

[BeRReGoN]

That sucks, maybe try to go with a more sober follow through. You'll get better advice soon I'm sure, I'm quite drunk right now(Am i Legally cover?), but the goal is to throw the disc (hopefully with some touch), not your arm.

 

[sidewinder22]

The rear arm dragging behind your back can't be helping anything, especially in regard to the amount of space/time you give your lead arm to safely deceleration in followthru.

Rear arm needs to lead front arm into the plant and throw.
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124523

 

[txmxer]

The hyper extension appears to be in your follow through at the very end. You shoulder stops your upper arm and your forearm kind of snaps to a stop.

I don't think it is in the throw itself.

 

[Melonhusk]

Thank you guys so much, this is exactly the kind of insight I was hoping for. I've been watching a lot of pros' follow throughs, and it does seem like mine is a lot more violent than most others' (especially considering how much faster their arms must be moving at peak speed). I can't imagine the key is to try to actively slow down the follow through, right? Any time I've tried to stop my arm from swinging freely - tree in the way, etc - it's lead to major pain. Will getting my rear arm forward earlier help rotate my shoulders around quicker, giving my lead shoulder/arm more range of motion in the follow through? Is that the idea?

 

[sidewinder22]

Thank you guys so much, this is exactly the kind of insight I was hoping for. I've been watching a lot of pros' follow throughs, and it does seem like mine is a lot more violent than most others' (especially considering how much faster their arms must be moving at peak speed). I can't imagine the key is to try to actively slow down the follow through, right? Any time I've tried to stop my arm from swinging freely - tree in the way, etc - it's lead to major pain. Will getting my rear arm forward earlier help rotate my shoulders around quicker, giving my lead shoulder/arm more range of motion in the follow through? Is that the idea?

Yeah, you don't want to actively slow down your lead arm down. The lead arm should pull the rest of the body into the followthru. If the rear arm is dragging behind, it's slowing the pivot of the rest of the body down into the followthru.

So the rear arm leads into the hit position and it stops or slows down while the lead arm gets whipped and lead arm pulls the rest of the body into followthru. There's a ying yang relationship.

Watch the slow motion drill of me and Ben Hogan.
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133319
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134415

 

[BossHawg]

I've had similar elbow issues. For me, the injury can happen if I have a bunch of off axis torque on my throw when I'm throwing overstable discs my hardest. I found the best way to avoid it is to get good at throwing understable discs, as the release for a hyzer flip is the opposite of an OAT release. Off axis torque promotes the clockwise twist of my wrist that causes my elbow to get jacked at the end of the follow through.

Try getting good at throwing hyzer flips and see if that fixes it for you. It helped me a lot.

Good luck.

 

[azplaya25]

I used to have a problem with this. Read a post by sidewinder where he talked about the finishing position feeling like full extension on a bench press. That's a powerful position, and makes it feel natural to push it out from center chest. This idea of pushing helps me with bracing and really prevents elbow hyperextension because the follow thru motion is more natural than pulling the whole way. Just make sure you don't start pushing too early, you need to let the disc load up at center chest before you push it out from center.

 

[Melonhusk]

I used to have a problem with this. Read a post by sidewinder where he talked about the finishing position feeling like full extension on a bench press. That's a powerful position, and makes it feel natural to push it out from center chest. This idea of pushing helps me with bracing and really prevents elbow hyperextension because the follow thru motion is more natural than pulling the whole way. Just make sure you don't start pushing too early, you need to let the disc load up at center chest before you push it out from center.

That's interesting, I've read that a ton, that it should feel like "pushing" and to be honest I've never been able to get that feeling. I don't think I was pulling the whole way, the way I could throw right before I had to stop (though I definitely used to do that), and I did feel like the disc got loaded up to my center chest but after that...I guess like a whipping feeling? A swing? Uncoiling? I've always been really curious about how to get the feeling of pushing from my chest that people talk about, seems there's definitely something I'm missing there.

 

[sidewinder22]

That's interesting, I've read that a ton, that it should feel like "pushing" and to be honest I've never been able to get that feeling. I don't think I was pulling the whole way, the way I could throw right before I had to stop (though I definitely used to do that), and I did feel like the disc got loaded up to my center chest but after that...I guess like a whipping feeling? A swing? Uncoiling? I've always been really curious about how to get the feeling of pushing from my chest that people talk about, seems there's definitely something I'm missing there.

Much easier to feel if you flip your wrist/disc upside down like a scoober or sideways like karate chop or hammer/axe. Wrist is very weak in backhand position and harder to feel cocked/loaded like spring - stiffening up wrist usually helps.

Push against the wall:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlyD1ynQrh4#t=3m26s

 

[azplaya25]

That's interesting, I've read that a ton, that it should feel like "pushing" and to be honest I've never been able to get that feeling. I don't think I was pulling the whole way, the way I could throw right before I had to stop (though I definitely used to do that), and I did feel like the disc got loaded up to my center chest but after that...I guess like a whipping feeling? A swing? Uncoiling? I've always been really curious about how to get the feeling of pushing from my chest that people talk about, seems there's definitely something I'm missing there.

If your getting a whip/swing/uncoiling from center chest, you aren't far off. Also, it's easy to go over board and just strong arm the whole throw. You still want to stay nice and loose. I feel it best going really slow with a hammer just pushing it out nice and wide.

 

[Melonhusk]

Gotcha, I guess that is sort of like a pushing feeling! I always think of that moment when the forearm swings/pushes open as being like when you bring a bat around to a baseball, at that same contact point diagonally in front of you. Like the upper arm is your arms, and the forearm is the bat. But of course, when your hips get turned forward it is almost like pushing the bat out in front of you. I see where that feeling is now, thanks!

The more I see pros throw now the more I see rear shoulders coming all the way around so that the lead arm doesn't run into a brick wall on the follow through. I definitely think getting my rear arm tucked and forward earlier is going to make a big difference. Wish I could do more than wait right now!

 

[Erik.SR]

https://youtu.be/n6pDJJGFnHE?t=1724

Video time 28:44 (Calvin's followthrough), in case link is not working. Am I seeing elbow overextension here?

 

[sidewinder22]

https://youtu.be/n6pDJJGFnHE?t=1724

Video time 28:44 (Calvin's followthrough), in case link is not working. Am I seeing elbow overextension here?

Kind of looks like it, but not sure with it being so far away. He could be hyper mobile, or could be a camera trick, or could be rolling his arm.

 

[ZacStagDG]

FINALLY! Someone else that is experiencing the exact same thing that I am.

Back in January, during a practice round, I was leaning around a tree for a flick. I had no room to follow through so I abruptly stopped my arm after release and felt a pretty rough pain in my inner elbow. Didn't flick the rest of the day, played 40 holes without pain. The next few weeks I had on and off discomfort, played in 2 tournaments, multiple practice rounds. Started wearing a brace and Advil, ice at night, it was inconvenient but not completely impeding my play.

February rolled around, field work in my front yard. 30ish flicks, changed to backhand for 3 throws and felt a small pop in my elbow followed by intense pain. I wasn't able to swing my arm at all, normal household chores were painful. Saw an Orthopedist, to my surprise, not Golfers Elbow. They diagnosed it as Cubital Tunnel Syndrome (Ulnar Nerve). This is my 6th week of PT, some improvement, but no where even close. I have an MRI of my elbow this week.

PT said, normal Cubital Tunnel would have healed by now, and that she believes it is due to hyper flexibility in my joints causing a whiplash/overuse that is compressing around the nerve. Unfortunately its an incredibly slow recovery process and has kept me from the start of tournament season. Similarly, I've done a good deal of research around form, and have found a liking to the breakdown of Cale Leiviska and Bradley Williams. It will drastically decrease overall distance when I get back to it, but I think fluid form and follow through will keep us on the course longer!

 

[Melonhusk]

Ironically I had the opposite thing happen; found out I was misdiagnosed with that hyperextended elbow after it wasn't healing like a hyperextension, and I'm now starting a 3 month rehab program for tricep tendinopathy! That said, I'm glad I started this thread because the same conditions that I thought were leading to me hyperextending my elbow were probably contributing to the stress on my tendon, and taking distance away too. Good luck on the recovery!

 

[BraceDisgrace]

That's interesting, I've read that a ton, that it should feel like "pushing" and to be honest I've never been able to get that feeling. I don't think I was pulling the whole way, the way I could throw right before I had to stop (though I definitely used to do that), and I did feel like the disc got loaded up to my center chest but after that...I guess like a whipping feeling? A swing? Uncoiling? I've always been really curious about how to get the feeling of pushing from my chest that people talk about, seems there's definitely something I'm missing there.

Sorry for digging up an old thread but this made me realize that I might've fundamentally misunderstood the mechanics from chest and out. What you're describing is how I would describe my throws. Incidentally I have been developing elbow issues (might be related to switching to spin putting and/or too much forehand). How have You developed since this post?

Much easier to feel if you flip your wrist/disc upside down like a scoober or sideways like karate chop or hammer/axe. Wrist is very weak in backhand position and harder to feel cocked/loaded like spring - stiffening up wrist usually helps.

Push against the wall:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlyD1ynQrh4#t=3m26s

I've already seen this video several times but I've never really given much thought to the "push against the wall" bit other than a balance drill. Are You saying that I should actively be pushing the disc out from my chest like Beto? Tricep extension?

 

[Melonhusk]

Sorry for digging up an old thread but this made me realize that I might've fundamentally misunderstood the mechanics from chest and out. What you're describing is how I would describe my throws. Incidentally I have been developing elbow issues (might be related to switching to spin putting and/or too much forehand). How have You developed since this post?

I'm doing alright after a boatload of rehab exercises! Would not recommend anyone give themselves triceps tendinopathy.

I tried to get info from the PT who put together my rehab program if there were any particular movements in my throw that might have been putting my elbow at more risk, and his view was no, it just came down to overuse. I do notice that there's a certain form funk I can get into that will give my elbow a painful almost "whiplash" like feeling as I throw, but that's not normal, and I think the way my injury came on was definitely more just a slow build up of overuse that I left untreated for way too long.

FWIW I'm still not sure how to "push" the disc out, even after watching some of SW's demos. I'm not sure if it's something I feel already but just process a different way, or just one of many things that hasn't clicked yet.

 

[sidewinder22]

I've already seen this video several times but I've never really given much thought to the "push against the wall" bit other than a balance drill. Are You saying that I should actively be pushing the disc out from my chest like Beto? Tricep extension?

Yes, like hammering a nail.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1pkfJtVq-8#t=2m33s

 

[Brychanus]

I've already seen this video several times but I've never really given much thought to the "push against the wall" bit other than a balance drill. Are You saying that I should actively be pushing the disc out from my chest like Beto? Tricep extension?

This Clement video SW22 shared with me forever changed how I think about the role of the arm:



If you do the hammer swing against a wall, to me it feels like gentle, firm tension but not the kind of slow, effortful contraction like when doing a triceps extension. Get the tension to flow through the whole swing from beginning to end and the ground up.