Avoiding elbow hyperextension on backhand

[drk_evns]

Good timing with this thread... two weeks ago I was messing around with my swing during a practice round and caused some tennis elbow by essentially short-arming my backhand swing. I think it's relatively minor, because I can warm up enough that it's not a problem during my rounds... especially if I remember to swing wide and loose with my arm. If I don't warm up and find my swing a little off, it causes pain.

I played a tournament last weekend, ended up shooting some of my highest rated rounds ever, and won my division. I have another one round tournament on Saturday and then I'm going to take a few weeks off with no rounds.

I found some stretches that seem to help, but the key is in a big centrifugal swing. I can feel my arm sort of pull back when I'm doing it incorrectly. As annoying as it is, it's certainly made a few things about the throw very clear.

 

[Waddball]

Good timing with this thread...

Hm, maybe. I haven't ever experienced any elbow issues, but yesterday after reading this thread and watching some of those off-arm swim move videos, I wanted to work on that. And bam! Elbow pain for the first time.

I'm guessing it was from two things. One, some awkward swings, as this is the first time I've really focused on the off arm and it threw my balance off several times, with some weird yanks to the right. Two, a couple of shots really boomed out, and I didn't follow through enough (got some elbow hyperextension).

Normally if I think of the off arm at all I just try to tuck it tight. So, question: for the swim move, is the off arm move forceful (it looks like it in videos) or more just a smooth stroke toward and then away from the lead side? I'm just unsure how much "punch" to apply.

 

[drk_evns]

Hm, maybe. I haven't ever experienced any elbow issues, but yesterday after reading this thread and watching some of those off-arm swim move videos, I wanted to work on that. And bam! Elbow pain for the first time.

I'm guessing it was from two things. One, some awkward swings, as this is the first time I've really focused on the off arm and it threw my balance off several times, with some weird yanks to the right. Two, a couple of shots really boomed out, and I didn't follow through enough (got some elbow hyperextension).

Normally if I think of the off arm at all I just try to tuck it tight. So, question: for the swim move, is the off arm move forceful (it looks like it in videos) or more just a smooth stroke toward and then away from the lead side? I'm just unsure how much "punch" to apply.

The left arm has a huge effect on these elbow issues. Getting it in tight to your body is hugely important for taking stress off the arm at the hit and allowing it to follow through naturally.

Personally, my left arm comes in tight as early as my x-step and sort of stays tucked in there through my backswing as opposed to swinging in or making a swim motion. I like the efficiency of this. I used to do more of a swim and I may experiment with it again when I feel really good about my consistency as is.

My guess is the change in your throw has affected something else, or engaging your off arm has unwillingly engaged muscles in your throwing arm that caused the elbow pain. Video is the best bet as you go through a change.

The real key to avoiding tennis elbow is allowing your arm to swing wide. Read about short arming in baseball or tennis.

 

[Melonhusk]

If you do the hammer swing against a wall, to me it feels like gentle, firm tension but not the kind of slow, effortful contraction like when doing a triceps extension. Get the tension to flow through the whole swing from beginning to end and the ground up.

If this is the feel I think that jives a lot better with what I experience, I had kind of been imagining people were timing a forcible elbow extension right at the end of the swing which seems hard to pull off to me. Also when Shawn says it's your body "readying for the resistance", that makes a lot of sense too.


The more I think about it, I think it would be really hard to hyperextend your elbow throwing backhand, because your arm isn't just hinging open, it's also rotating from the shoulder. Going through the motion slowly I feel like at the point of release the momentum of the arm isn't really carrying the elbow towards hyperextension, unless you're doing something really really wrong. I made this thread while getting a lot of very bad advice from doctors who didn't really understand the fundamental motions of disc golf and I think this was just one more example of that. Clearly there are a lot of other ways you can screw up your elbow throwing discs!

 

[BraceDisgrace]

Yes, like hammering a nail.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1pkfJtVq-8#t=2m33s

Thanks! I guess I'm already doing it to some degree, but I've never actively thought about it except when throwing approach shots.

Just to be clear: The part of the drill when you're pushing against the wall, is that meant as an exaggerated (late) push mimicking chest out? Or is it the continuation of the chest out move?

 

[Brychanus]

Thanks! I guess I'm already doing it to some degree, but I've never actively thought about it except when throwing approach shots.

Just to be clear: The part of the drill when you're pushing against the wall, is that meant as an exaggerated (late) push mimicking chest out? Or is it the continuation of the chest out move?

I found that it got easier when doing approach shots from One Leg and really focusing on swinging it WIDE like a heavier weight or hammer. This helps discourage trying to get an "artificial power pocket", and let your posture & the weight of the arm and disc come in toward your body and then redirect toward the target.

If the shoulder is closed, the tricep will naturally start to 'resist' letting the disc collapse into your chest (but expect a few chest bounces at first). It might not be the same for everyone. I've found it very helpful to do moderate-speed practice swings with the disc held vertically, swinging it as wide as possible like a hammer before doing OLD or any other style. It helps to convince the body to resist the collapse as you speed up (don't swing too fast in these practice swings - if you don't release the disc it can easily put strain on the body in the follow through when keeping ahold of the disc).

One other thing worth mentioning - I started to notice that even when posture improves, it's possible that the throwing shoulder can crowd/collapses in subtly against the momentum even when the triceps/wrist get good tension after that. You can lose power and get some strain around the front of the shoulder and clavicle when that happens. The solution is similar - back to OLD and get a really nice, easy shoulder swing back and forth wide over the knees leading to resist the collapse and speed it up.

 

[sidewinder22]

Just to be clear: The part of the drill when you're pushing against the wall, is that meant as an exaggerated (late) push mimicking chest out? Or is it the continuation of the chest out move?

Not sure the difference.

 

[timothy42b]

I found that it got easier when doing approach shots from One Leg and really focusing on swinging it WIDE like a heavier weight or hammer. This helps discourage trying to get an "artificial power pocket", and let your posture & the weight of the arm and disc come in toward your body and then redirect toward the target.

So, the exact opposite of the Beato 2.0 just posted?

 

[Brychanus]

So, the exact opposite of the Beato 2.0 just posted?

I think they're probably good complements. The "swing wide" helps emphasize using posture/centrifuge to bring the disc in toward the body and then back out without strong arming & gain that natural flow of arm tension.

The Beato 2.0/OG teach you power & posture at critical points.

In each case ideally you learn how to "shift from behind" to help each drill to work optimally. If not your arm easily gets the wrong idea & gets muscle in the wrong places. Doing the Beato "right pec drill" with a good weight shift recently improved my short range upshots quite a bit.

As SW22 often shows, gaining mastery forwards & backwards can really accelerate learning. Sometimes it works better once other pieces of form are already in place as "prerequisites".

PS Here are visuals on the "swing wide" pre-shot routine that helped me the most, you can x-step into the same motion as well or hold the disc vertical/"fan" with it. Recently I've found I'm much less likely to botch a line or get a weird form slip if I'm diligent about doing this. Reposted from the Finish and Address thread.

Re: Hyperextension- Notice that in each swing the elbow is behind the shoulder and protected throughout the motion. If the body is clearing forward properly & diffusing additional momentum after the release, the elbow should not be hyperextending.

 

[BraceDisgrace]

Not sure the difference.

The push from the power pocket should happen before I'm in the position you demonstrate (pushing against the wall), right? So does that mean that the drill is meant to teach me to keep pressure through the hit or is it just a necessary starting position to even be able to drill the chest-out move?

 

[sidewinder22]

The push from the power pocket should happen before I'm in the position you demonstrate (pushing against the wall), right? So does that mean that the drill is meant to teach me to keep pressure through the hit or is it just a necessary starting position to even be able to drill the chest-out move?

Push thru the hit and you can work back from it.