Backhand vs Forehand spin rate (TechDisc)

[HyzerRoc]

After a lot of tweaking, I broke 700. 3D Throw Viewer

There's also a parameter in the URL for wind, but there's nothing on the site to adjust it. 1,920. 3D Throw Viewer

Interesting that higher weights seem to yield higher distances when combined with understability. I played around with it as well and tried to use light discs, but could not make them go much farther beyond 600.

Do you think the simulator is just broken or is there some legibility to heavier discs going farther?

 

[Ryan P.]

Everything I'm about to say is a guess based on my knowledge of coding (I'm a software developer) and disc physics (I've been playing for 17 years).

I don't know.

 

[Ryan P.]

Interesting that higher weights seem to yield higher distances when combined with understability. I played around with it as well and tried to use light discs, but could not make them go much farther beyond 600.

Do you think the simulator is just broken or is there some legibility to heavier discs going farther?

From my understanding of how they calibrated their sensors, I don't know that they have enough data to confidently say that heavier discs fly farther than lighter ones, or the other way around. I think their data is focused on the 200'-550' range, and anything outside of that range is based on the data in that range. In other words, their guesses are better than any guess I could come up with, but I don't think we can confidently say it is accurate.

If it is accurate, here's my guess as to why: a disc thrown at 80mph will retain it's speed for a longer period of time due to the conservation of momentum. A heavier object with the same shape will retain/conserve it's momentum better than a lighter one since both of them have to push against the same number of air particles. Air particles move out of the way quickly, but adding them all up over a long flight adds up.

Here's the simplest way I know to explain it in relation to our experience of throwing. When we throw a disc, it's easier to get a lighter disc to a faster speed due to the weight. However, if we could get a heavier disc up to speed (which the simulator can easily do), it will retain it's momentum longer.

 

[HyzerRoc]

Here's the simplest way I know to explain it in relation to our experience of throwing. When we throw a disc, it's easier to get a lighter disc to a faster speed due to the weight. However, if we could get a heavier disc up to speed (which the simulator can easily do), it will retain it's momentum longer.

This one makes a lot of sense. A heavier object thrown at the same speed as a lighter object requires more work/has more energy saved in it (not sure about terminology here, I'm a little bit lost on terms from physics as I learned that stuff in german). Therefor it also flies further. It also explains why Wiggins used a Blizzard Boss, however that might also be in part due to the wind carrying a lighter object further than a heavier one.

As to your point about their recorded data points: I wonder if they extrapolated the formula for throwing a disc from the throws they recorded or if they predict the flight of the disc, informing themselves with their recorded data (deduction vs. induction). But I also have no idea about how physicists make any formula.

 

[Ryan P.]

As to your point about their recorded data points: I wonder if they extrapolated the formula for throwing a disc from the throws they recorded or if they predict the flight of the disc, informing themselves with their recorded data (deduction vs. induction). But I also have no idea about how physicists make any formula.

Same

 

[Snaques]

If I had to guess it's because backhand is a longer lever from disc to bracing foot. It's really difficult to achieve as long a brace with forehand as you can backhand.

Not that I know anything, but isn't this purely a grip thing. On BH you have a very specific pivot point and the disc rips out of your hand in a whiplash motion whereas on FH you just kind of push the disc into rotation?

If you take your index finger off of the rim on BH, you lose all the spin.

 

[Sheep]

Okay,
I'll half explain this, because the data probably isn't in the program. whatever.

Weight distribution plays a key factor in over time stability of the disc.

This is MVP's big deal. Whatever the percentage is. I lost the articles and the guy who wrote them. but from memory, it was like 18% more weight to the rim on MVP.

Couple factors here.
Ripums on an object with a mass on the outside are far harder to create, vs inside.

Good ripums on a high rim rated disc with speed will produce a longer flight as the disc is able to maintain stability in flight for longer periods before succumbing to turbulence and stalling or whatever particular thing happens to the disc.

The spin of the disc is critical in the disc maintaining a stable flight and fighting against the turbulence and flow of the air.
This is why max weight discs generally fight wind better.
But you can pull out a 165 mvp disc and get really good wind results. Because the disc is lighter, you can get the spin rate up, but because of the weight distribution its able to fight the turbulant air better.

So, the calculator most likely is doing the math based on probably some weird data set like 90% of the weight being on the outermost rim of the disc.

 

[BrotherDave]

Not that I know anything, but isn't this purely a grip thing. On BH you have a very specific pivot point and the disc rips out of your hand in a whiplash motion whereas on FH you just kind of push the disc into rotation?

If you take your index finger off of the rim on BH, you lose all the spin.

FH also has a specific pivot point, it's just more of a fan grip than a power grip in nature. If you have a wobbly FH, it's often because your grip isn't pinching tight enough.

The bigger thing is the wrist though. The wrist swings from closed to open on a BH and open to closed on a FH. But the wrist hinge length of travel is longer on a BH. The more fingers you use in your FH grip, the less travel for the wrist (hence why 1 finger FH feel snappier than 2 finger FHs which feel torque-ier). The travel length for the arm in general is longer overall in a BH vs a FH because the joints are maximized. In a FH, a lot of your arm movement is counter to the way your body wants to move (going against the grain of joints and connective tissue, etc), resulting in much shorter length of travel and leverage.

The other factor in this leverage difference is the bracing leg to foot pivot has a longer travel capacity in BH than FH also. From max reachback to release, you typically see a rotation of something like 90-100 degrees in the BH versus 45 degrees in a FH.

Cliff's notes version is BH is just a much longer coil overall than FH.

 

[gwsmallwood]

Interesting that higher weights seem to yield higher distances when combined with understability. I played around with it as well and tried to use light discs, but could not make them go much farther beyond 600.

Do you think the simulator is just broken or is there some legibility to heavier discs going farther?

zonadiscgolf on YouTube has a Why do discs fly series that delves into the physics. The guy that runs the channel is a physicist. He talks about weight briefly. I'm an engineer and I had to watch the videos multiple times and I'm still not sure I understand half of it. But the guy's from Spain, so at least you get to enjoy listending to his accent with that Spainish lisp.