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Camp Sankanac
- Thread starter wilsondl
- Start date
mike
* Ace Member *
- Joined
- Nov 1, 2005
- Messages
- 4,026
It's on the schedule for the 24th of November. I spoke to Pastor Jeff last week about it and its slated for that day!
This year...mandatory Pre-reg....
Eco81
Double Eagle Member
Sweet the Saturday after thanksgiving. I played in it last year. Super fun.
Excellent! I'll have to see if I can get my brothers to come back to town, and hopefully we'll put a pair of teams in it again this year.
mike
* Ace Member *
- Joined
- Nov 1, 2005
- Messages
- 4,026
would love to see ya again vince!
the_lung
Eagle Member
It is good to hear of a deuce on that hole - which occurs far less frequently than Pastor Jeff and I would prefer.
A little history lesson here: One of the first things I did at the Sankanac course was to get rid of a) safety issues and b) the "obvious" course design flaws - tees too close to the target of the previous hole, crossing fairways, leveling of tees, etc. After that, we focused on designing a course towards a specific skill level, which we wanted to be ~950-rated blue level disc golfers. Here's some notes on the first incarnation of the course from 2007:
- Hole#1: This tee used to be very close to the bridge and was brutal for lefties; I suggested moving the tee out and centering it between the bridge and the woods, and it's a far better hole now.
- Hole#2: This tee used to be located closer to the road. It was a safety hazard because it was where drives from the previous hole could land. The tee was moved down to bring the water into play and make the hole more challenging, and to protect throwers from hole#1. The polehole position used to be located about 100 feet closer, near the house. Mike Solt later came in and suggested moving the pin to its current position, and now it's a perfect pro par four hole.
- Hole#3: This tee was not very even nor level, and was improved greatly.
- Hole#4: This tee pad was actually on the slope and angled severely downhill. Early one morning in 2007 while the tee was covered with dew, Pastor Jeff's friend Earl threw a drive and his feet slipped out from under him and he landed flat on his back. Installing a level tee pad became priority#1A/1B, and the current concrete tee is one of the nicest on the course.
- Hole#5: The playground right and the road beyond the target were originally not designated as OB, and I suggested making them so to dissuade shots in that direction and to penalize errant shots - it's actually an easier approach angle from the right, and I wanted throwers who came up short on the drive to have to make a much more difficult downhill approach underneath the tree branches.
- Hole#6: The original tee was down by the water, quite uneven and not level, and subject to erosion into the creek. Although it made the hole a little longer, I think it actually helps folks to hit the gap because they have better footing.
- Hole#7: The original tee was in the open and only 20 feet to the right of hole#6's polehole. It was another tee which wasn't even, and for safety and leveling reasons, the tee was moved back from the edge of the hill.
At this point, let's talk a little design theory. One of the things which I try to keep track of on a course is "two-shot" par three holes for blue level players, which are often gold level par three holes or a little bit longer "tweener" holes which are too short to be considered legitimate par four holes. While I believe that a disc golf course should feature several of this type of hole so that players have to make shortish approach shots of 80-125 feet, too many of these holes can spoil a course because for most golfers of average abilities they are "auto 3s" where there's little scoring separation - many golfers have almost no chance at deuce on these holes, and a great majority will take a score of 3 unless someone makes a bonehead move and records a four. The original layout featured "two-shot" par three holes on holes# 5,6,7, 14, 16, and 17 which I felt was just too many. (Note: hole#14 was originally about 100 feet shorter, and was later lengthened to make it a bonafide pro par 4 hole, and hole#16's tee was originally longer, which made both holes 2-shot par three holes...more on this later) I am pleased that the course currently only features three of these holes - #5,6, & 7, although it bothers me that they all come right in a row. However, one thing Jeff and I tried to be cognizant of is that many skilled golfers throw a lot further than we do, and just because we needed to make approach shots on these holes, others might not. Furthermore, a) hole#5 was just too perfect to change b) the basket of hole#6 could not be moved closer because it would encroach with the soccer field. The only change we settled on was moving the basket of hole#7 away from the water and out to the edge of the soccer field to make this a legitimate deuce opportunity. However, it was later decided that due to popular opinion, most folks preferred the basket close to the creek and bringing that hazard into play. So we're kind of stuck with it.
- Hole#8: This hole originally played from the edge of the soccer field, and over to the landing area of the drive of the current hole#8. While a fun shot, I encouraged Jeff to come up with a new design because of the crossing fairway and interference with the previous hole being typically heavily frowned upon in course design. I love the new hole as one of the toughest pro par fours on the course.
- Old Hole#9: Played up the hill as a simple par 3 to where the current basket of hole#8 is.
- Hole#9: This tee also needed a little reinforcement and leveling, and there used to be no steps here in front of the tee, and you basically had to gallop down the hill to get down safely and avoid falling on your ass. As I explained to Jeff, this was a lawsuit waiting to happen, and installing steps for safety became priority#1A/1B.
- Hole#13: The basket used to be located inside the manmade walls. The original tee used to be basically ten feet to the right of the polehole of #12, and although it made an already easy hole shorter, it had to be moved up for safety reasons. Originally there was no OB on this hole, and much discussion ensued on whether to make outside the walls OB, outside the ring of trees around the walls (and into the schul) OB, or no OB at all. Something was needed on this hole because we would always see scores of 2 or 3 (and the occasional 1) and no scoring separation, and with OB you'd see scores of 4,5 or higher. To my knowledge, this is the only hole at Camp Sankanac which was ever aced. I actually like the newly redesigned hole a lot because I've seen scores of 2-5 on it.
- Hole#14: As mentioned previously, the tee used to be much shorter, and the distance was in that tweener range where a score of four felt like a bogey. Stronger throwers actually used to be able to drive up around the corner and have nothing but a jump putt left instead of the blind approach spot which requires far more skill. With the advent of disc technology within the last five years, it's still one of the easier pro par four holes on the course.
- Hole#16: Also mentioned previously, the tee used to be located about 20 feet from the basket of the previous hole. Besides the safety factor, this made the hole an awkward tweener distance. No one ever tried to go for the polehole - most golfers would simply throw a safe shot out to the left and get up-n-down for a routine score of 3. Moving the tee up allowed for turnover shots and lefty hyzers to get close to the polehole for a deuce. Note: With some good advice from Mike Solt, this tee was later moved further right. I really like this location as it sets up perfectly and encourages a righty backhand roller shot. :thmbup:
- Hole#17: The tee of this hole used to be further back, almost to the treeline behind you. Because of the distance and thickness of the rough on either side of the gap in the woods, Jeff noticed that virtually no one ever tried to go for the polehole - golfers would simply lay up before the gap, and then make a boring up and down pitch for a 3. Moving the tee up encouraged golfers to go for the green - and now scores of 2-5 are common.
- Hole#18 - This used to play from near the tee of hole#17 to over towards the parking lot and was quite a forgettable hole. It is always nice to have a memorable and challenging final hole on a disc golf course, and the old one required hiking back almost to the tee of the prior hole, and played as an uneventful "pooch shot" to finish.
Jeff's new hole#18 was a brilliant idea and really made the course. However, he originally planted the tee close to the evergreen trees on the left. This tee pad severely limited one's options too greatly off the tee - you were always going to throw basically the same drive to about the same landing zone each time. Brian Gunkel and I looked at a tee location that was on a flat spot in the open, and was located near a dirt spot where there looks to have been a campfire. This new tee location made the hole slightly longer but gave competitors options off the tee. One can choose to throw a drive that lands left, centered, or right depending on the preference and execution of the thrower. One can also choose to throw a roller that will hopefully make the downslope and carry down it a bit. It didn't make the hole any easier since the approach is still challenging as it plays to a very protected pin position with an OB hazard right behind it. An additional benefit is that this tee moves throwers further away from the house & trees and the possibility of interaction there - I actually could have envisioned golfers throwing huge anhyzer sky shots over the house. The hole later became all the more challenging when the field on the right was grown up and designated OB, and when the landing zone area started to be utilized for wood piles. Still, while Jordan Creek and IUP College Lodge are up there, is there a better finishing hole in the state of Pennsylvania than the 18th at Camp Sankanac? :thmbup:
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Eco81
Double Eagle Member
I don't know if there is a better finishing hole and what a great run down of the course from where it was to where it is now. I can't wait to see and hear about the new holes. I am trying to figure out where the new down hill hole with the basket being surrounded by water on 3 sides. The new 9 holes are going to make the course one of the best in eastern pa and with benches, baskets, and updated tee pads....WOW......
Can anyone say 10 ten in the contry. I can
Can anyone say 10 ten in the contry. I can
mike
* Ace Member *
- Joined
- Nov 1, 2005
- Messages
- 4,026
I cant wait for Jeff to divulge the goodness of the new holes. Some are holes that i hoped for when i first came to the camp!
Holding back the spoiler is brutal...but I'll let Jeff be the informer, like snow
Holding back the spoiler is brutal...but I'll let Jeff be the informer, like snow
Oh no you dih'int!
the_lung
Eagle Member
Actually, that just jogged my memory. Apparently another spot for new holes will be along the road as you first drive in...yes indeed, you wanted it, you got it...there's going to be a ~ 285' shot across the pond shot!!!
Eco81
Double Eagle Member
Yeah baby. More risk reward.
the_lung
Eagle Member
oops, duplicate
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mike
* Ace Member *
- Joined
- Nov 1, 2005
- Messages
- 4,026
the_lung
Eagle Member
Received this email from the Camp today:
Eco81
Double Eagle Member
Got out and played sankanac today and had a good round. Shot 1 over. No discs in the water. But the course is looking great. Everything was mowed. No trash. Nothing to complain about. Tee pads were a little damp and slick but as to be expected at 9am in the fall
the_lung
Eagle Member
I'll pass this note on to Pastor Jeff. As a pay-to-play facility he is very concerned about people being happy with the course and feeling they got their money's worth. It probably wouldn't take too much effort to build up the base underneath several of the most problematic tee pads to keep them from being slick. :thmbup:
Eco81
Double Eagle Member
It is not all the tee pads. And let's to make it seem worse then it really is but there are a couple that are worse then others.
cheddapig
Par Member
- Joined
- Apr 4, 2009
- Messages
- 206
No not all of them are that bad all the time. But most notably holes 5, 7, 8 and 9 are prettymuch slippery everytime. Sometimes holes 6, 10, 11, and 12 can get slippery but for the most part give sufficient grip. Pastor Jeff informed me that they wanted to go to concrete tee boxes. I don't know the specifications on the concrete pads but I know they can become even worse inclement weather then what they're using now.
Eco81
Double Eagle Member
any info on the new holes or baskets or new layout?
