Courses that Force a Complete Game

[DavidSauls]

2 skills I suck at that are essential are playing in wind and playing in the rain.

There is nothing that a course can do to provide these. Although open courses encourage the wind to come into play, there is nothing a course can do if it is calm (or dry). Also, certain areas of the country are more windy and/or rainy than others.....but even in those places there are plenty of calm and/or dry days.

Would you add "snow" to that? If so, you'll whittle down the field a good bit.

 

[mashnut]

Ozark Mountain
Spencer-Davis
Nevin
Hornet's Nest

There's a bunch more, but those are the three I can think of off the top of my head that require me to throw a variety of shots and always remind me of the shots I need to work on. I have yet to play the IDGC courses; they are on my list to play. I've heard many great things about them. Pittsburgh area also comes to mind, but I haven't played there since 2009 so I'd like to return before I list any of them.

Ozark and Spencer Davis were the ones that immediately jumped to mind when I saw the title of the thread.

 

[BigAl724]

Almost said Idlewild, but too much randomness on 4-5 of the holes. Also, need a little more open throws on Iron Hill.

Just curious, which holes are you talking about?

 

[Dave242]

Would you add "snow" to that? If so, you'll whittle down the field a good bit.

How many PDGA events are planned around snow? I think that settles that

 

[Stardoggy]

How many PDGA events are planned around snow? I think that settles that

Hey, if they can do it with the Super Bowl, no reason they couldn't do it in DG.

 

[JC17393]

How many PDGA events are planned around snow? I think that settles that

I don't know about planned around snow, but I've played a couple PDGA-sanctioned ice bowls so it's not like there aren't events that expect or even count on snow.

More on topic, some I think fit the category from my list of played courses...

Idlewild
Winthrop Gold (with the ropes up, of course)
Tyler State Park (in the C-pins)
Maple Hill Gold
Warwick Town Park (blue-blue)
Wickham Park (CT, not FL)

 

[BogeyNoMore]

2 skills I suck at that are essential are playing in wind and playing in the rain.

There is nothing that a course can do to provide these. Although open courses encourage the wind to come into play, there is nothing a course can do if it is calm (or dry). Also, certain areas of the country are more windy and/or rainy than others.....but even in those places there are plenty of calm and/or dry days.

I don't know that you can guarantee wind, but there are some courses where wind is much more likely to be a factor. Hole 1 on Beast in Ludington is a decent example, as is the back 12 on The Edge. If a course has a nice mix of woods and fairly open holes, as well as significant elevation, you're off to a decent start. Cass Benton Hills in Northville is as complete an 18 hole course as I've seen - honestly. Tight woods, wide open bombers, wind almost always in play on holes 3 long, as well 16 and 18 from either tee. 14 long is a pretty long wooded hole. Up hills, down hills, ace runs, blind pin placements (1 Long takes some skill to score well consistently)...

The only problem is how woefully run down that course has gotten, .
One thing I think Hudson Mills Monster is kind of missing: could use more (and greater) elevation changes, but it's pretty complete.

Renny was damned complete, too.

 

[tedkeith]

Woodhenge at Smithville Lake has long wooded, long open, short wooded, kinda short open, water, OB, forced hyzer, forced anny, forced straight, dog legs. Really everything but a lot of elevation. There is some, but if you really need that you can drive down and play Water Works. Plus it's very beautiful and there are two other great courses on site. I would say that the Blackthorn course has all of the same qualities really.

 

[DavidSauls]

How many PDGA events are planned around snow? I think that settles that

I'll bet more are planned when snow is likely, maybe overwhelmingly likely, than when rain is likely. Rain tends to come after the planning.

And that's just PDGA events. Consider other events for which you want a "complete game".

 

[MOchains]

Marshall, MO South Course

 

[Dan Ensor]

Woodhenge at Smithville Lake has long wooded, long open, short wooded, kinda short open, water, OB, forced hyzer, forced anny, forced straight, dog legs. Really everything but a lot of elevation. There is some, but if you really need that you can drive down and play Water Works. Plus it's very beautiful and there are two other great courses on site. I would say that the Blackthorn course has all of the same qualities really.

I definitely thought of Smithville Lake; especially if you take all 3 into consideration.

The best 3 course site I've played is Ozark Mountain, Spencer Davis, and Akita's Run. Hope they don't disappear ...

 

[Prostar47]

nockamixon!

 

[Dave242]

Almost said Idlewild, but too much randomness on 4-5 of the holes. Also, need a little more open throws on Iron Hill.

Just curious, which holes are you talking about?

At Idlewild, random trees on the following holes discourage risk-taking and they add complete randomness to scoring when trying to play for a good score.

3 - approach (random trees around OB)
5 - 2nd half of fairway
6 - 2nd half of fairway
8
10 - approach to basket
13

IMO, Idlewild is still a great test of the overall game (I have it on my list above), but it suffers from what 1978 points out. I will add to that by saying Idlewild is ways too heavy on testing the 200' placement shot game. I have called it a "doinky"course before and stick by that assessment.

 

[Dave242]

More on topic, some I think fit the category from my list of played courses...

Idlewild
Winthrop Gold (with the ropes up, of course)
Tyler State Park (in the C-pins)
Maple Hill Gold
Warwick Town Park (blue-blue)
Wickham Park (CT, not FL)

I am not convinced Winthrop Gold (with ropes) is a good candidate. Most of the course is about placement - emphasizing where/how you land rather than emphasizing any shot shaping skills.

Wickham (CT) is quite open and IMO, the wooded holes do not offer as much variety as required to be a "complete test". Fun course though!

Warwick & Tyler are near the top of my wish list!

 

[Dan Ensor]

Here is my attempt at a complete list of skills a course needs to test.

But first I think the test needs to be dialed in to a specific throwing distance. For me, a 400' hole is good to have since it proves that I cannot throw 400' (and allows others to outscore me who have this skill). But if the majority of the course forces throws that require all sorts of shot shapes that also require 400' D to score well on.....then that course fails at really testing my other skills.

In my opinion holes should vary in effective length approximately +/-20% of the target D. So, for Blue level players, average golf D is around 340'.....so the majority of holes should vary between 275' and 400'.

For Blue the course should force these throws:
375-400' straight open-ish (2 of these per course)
325' straight open-ish
325' straight open-ish finishing R (rewards (RHBH or LHFH)
325' straight open-ish finishing L (rewards LHBH or RHFH)
300' R to L fairway curve finishing L
300' L to R fairway curve finishing R
300' R to L fairway curve finishing R (S-curve)
300' L to R fairway curve finishing L (S-curve)
275' tunnel straight (pinch points at over 12-16' wide at mind point)
275' tunnel curving R finishing right (pinch points at over 12-16' wide at mind point)
275' tunnel curving L finishing L (pinch points at over 12-16' wide at mind point)
275' tunnel curving R finishing L (pinch points at over 12-16' wide at mind point)
275' tunnel curving L finishing R (pinch points at over 12-16' wide at mind point)
Flat, uphill, and down hill versions of each.
Green types and other "course management" could/would be varied throughout.

As you see, there are around 14 variations, so to factor in terrain adequately, you need well over 24 holes (throw segments) to even consider calling a course a complete test of skills.

One other thought: IMO, rollers, thumbers, tomahawks, scoobies, etc are specialty shots that do not have to be tested per se. They come in handy and help out in scoring but there is such a huge variety of of shot shapes they add, that the number of permutations of holes one would need to test all of them is staggeringly huge (let alone extremely challenging to construct).

I'd add something about throwing over obstacles to the list.

Rollers are essential, imo. There's no other way to shape a lot of drives (out to the left, turn to the right, land and roll to the left, flip over to the right). There's no other way to throw really long drives with a low ceiling. If I hit a tree with a roller, it doesn't kick the wrong way, and often gets decent distance in the right direction. I think they're very consistent too.

 

[MacDaddy]

Hazel Landing Park in Carmel, IN. Long, but not too long. Tons of awesome trees force control on virtually every shot. A few holes in the open to let you grip it and rip it. Even exposure to a little water!

 

[Grungedude42]

Hazel Landing Park in Carmel, IN. Long, but not too long. Tons of awesome trees force control on virtually every shot. A few holes in the open to let you grip it and rip it. Even exposure to a little water!

Now if only it had some elevation. There's a few little dips and ducks, but we have a real lack of big uphill/downhill shots in this part of the country. Maybe if Ft. Ben let us get in and amongst the other side of Fall Creek, we'd be in business. Walked those trails last week, and it'd make for some beautiful disc golfing.

Hazel gets a nice differential between tees, in that some shots from the blues which are birdie or bust turn into real tests for par from the golds, at least amongst intermediate players. It does have some excellent line shaping challenges from either set of tees.

 

[tarel]

tyler all c pins
warwick

 

[Dave242]

I'd add something about throwing over obstacles to the list.

I'm not sure what this means.....although I like the sound of it. Explanation or picture/s would be helpful.

Rollers are essential, imo. There's no other way to shape a lot of drives (out to the left, turn to the right, land and roll to the left, flip over to the right). There's no other way to throw really long drives with a low ceiling. If I hit a tree with a roller, it doesn't kick the wrong way, and often gets decent distance in the right direction. I think they're very consistent too.

I do not argue that having a wide variety of rollers in your toolbag is not a great asset. Even being dialed in on just a couple roller throws is great. I just do not think it is an essential skill to have on most of the courses I have played (350+).

Maybe a better way to put it is that I think good courses should have airways that force very specific lines on at least 1/2 of the holes. How do you force a roller as well as a specific path for a roller? How do you design (and maintain) a hole that gives a high percentage birdie to people with rollers that no one else can get?

I know there are some courses like this - I recently watched this video at Seneca in MD:



I dunno.....I am not really against rollers, but I do admit that I have a bias against them as a part of our game.....as in a required bread-n-butter throw. After all, discs are meant to fly. We are not playing Wheel Golf are we?

 

[bhadella]

I've never walked away from a course dissapointed that it didn't have a roller/overhand hole on it. They certainly are valuable shots (especially for recovery shots) but aren't IMO necessary for a well-rounded course. Atleast in this area; most fairways that calls for a roller is either littered with sticks/branches or roots that create a increased amount of "luck" on rollers.

For my money; a variety of shot shapes (with both clockwise and anti-clockwise fade control) at varying distances with elevation change is the mix I want.