Des Blasts Worlds

[Aaron_D]

Wow! On dgtv she slams the course design as short and lucky and makes some good points about trees in the middle of the fairway and gimmicky baskets hanging from trees. I could not agree more.

Around here there is a course designed by some crazy massocistic lunatic with holes so riddled with trees and crazy 700' holes with 100 degree doglegs it makes one want to bring an axe along for the round. If you do happen to hit one of these trees and wind up in the rough, you could be spending 20 minutes looking for your disc amongst the RAINFOREST (complete with banana spiders the size of your head) that surrounds you. There is a big difference between a challenging, technical course and a lucky, no line options, super narrow-but riddled with random trees in the middle of the fairway course. I bet this guy eats cereal with a fork because it's "challenging".

Crazy hard does not equal skilled. It's one thing to have a 400' tunnel shot down a 10' wide fairway...its another to have a 400' tunnel shot down a 10' fairway with several trees randomly blocking the left side of the fairway 15' from the tee and another tree blocking the right side 200' out and yet another blocking the fairway...ahh you get my point. Also, how many 5-10' wide fairways does one 27 hole course need? This one has about 20. All you can throw on courses like these are putters and mids...even on the 500+ foot holes. Its just frustrating and boring. No over the top lines, no opportunities to rip a highspeed driver...just a bunch of roc shots and lay ups.

Needless to say only the really skilled players even make it through this course as most quit after the 15th time they are forced to go 50' into the dense jungle and look for their disc in leafy undergrowth up to their knees. Im glad Des didnt just smile and say she was having a bad day...

Oh, and considering the women at worlds are being forced to play from the "white tees", I think she took it easy on the interviewer. She should have challenged whichever masoganist, small wanged organizer who decided that rule to a distance competetion. Women should play from the same tees as men. Next they will start requiring women to use light weight discs...

Des, dont let them get you down. Speaking your mind is the best thing you could have done. You make me proud to be a disc golfer.

 

[Bruce1]

Oh, and considering the women at worlds are being forced to play from the "white tees", I think she took it easy on the interviewer. She should have challenged whichever masoganist, small wanged organizer who decided that rule to a distance competetion. Women should play from the same tees as men. Next they will start requiring women to use light weight discs...

I haven't seen the course, so no comment on the challenge, but this part is wrong, sorry.

The fact is that highest rated female golfer is Des at 963, and there are only 3 others over 950. That makes the women's division basically an Adv Am standard, and there is nothing wrong with playing them of tees designed for that skill level, in fact, it's the absolute correct call... White tees might be too short admittedly, but playing the same tees as the guys? No...

 

[Aaron_D]

What about a lower player's rating makes a closer tee more appropriate? I was under the assumption that a lower rating might be due to poor putting, bad course management, inaccuracy, poor mental conditioning...etc. Why not make the women play with larger baskets or longer breaks or with different rules?
:roll:

playing the same tees as the guys? No...

Making world class athletes play on a course that essentially insults them is not the right call. If all the women play from the same tee's, then why would it matter? Sounds like you are hung up on playing from the same tees as women--even when those women can outplay you--simply because you *might* be able to drive farther.

Besides, cant Des throw over 400'? That means she could take a drop in 3 on an 800' hole...white tees my ass.

That makes the women's division basically an Adv Am standard, and there is nothing wrong with playing them of tees designed for that skill level, in fact, it's the absolute correct call...

It is wrong because they dont move the tees back for avery, brinster, feldburg, schweb, barry, doss, and the other 10 or so guys that always wind up in the final group. I think most people would admit that they are in a "skill level" that most course designes do not take into consideration. I say move those freaks back a few dozen feet. :?

 

[Bruce1]

Sounds like you are hung up on playing from the same tees as women--even when those women can outplay you--simply because you *might* be able to drive farther.

Besides, cant Des throw over 400'? That means she could take a drop in 3 on an 800' hole...white tees my ass.

Nope, not a bit of it. You're the one 'hung up' on distance. Different tee positions are about scoring spread for a skill group, and have little to do with pure distance.
Read the guidelines here: http://www.pdga.com/documents/2004/PDGAGuides2004.pdf

I'd already agreed that white tees were too short, but they should be playing off the Blues, not the Golds with the guys...

The fact that Des can throw it a long way should have nothing to do with the course they play, it's about the scoring spread of the field, not one persons distance potential.

 

[Aaron_D]

I am hung up on distance because that is what is being changed for lower rated players.

Why closer tees for lower rated players? Why not another crutch? Moving tees closer because a player cant approach or putt doesnt make sense. It clearly says white tees are to be used for open women's divisions...these holes should be btwn 150' and 270'...that's ridiculous and outdated. Juliana, Val, Des, and Burl can hit 360+ with superb accuracy. This is clearly a case of generalizing for the good of womens groups that dont include the top tier players...since the top tier players play in majors on champion calibur courses...this generalization is either outdated, or flat out should not be adhered to for majors.

I still dont see why pro women in open should play from shorter tees. If they all play from the same tees wouldnt it still be fair? I certianly think it would add to an overall sense of mutual respect and would avoid making players of the fairer sex feel infantalized. Maybe they would have higher scores overall, but is that such a bad thing? Is it worse than having a major tournament in which an entire professional division is forced to play on a course that essentially underestimates their skills? That to me is worse as both a technical ruling and a moral judgment.

*I realize they made the decision based on the PDGA guidelines, but I am saying those guidelines should be reconsidered.

 

[Bruce1]

Why closer tees for lower rated players? Why not another crutch? Moving tees closer because a player cant approach or putt doesnt make sense. It clearly says white tees are to be used for open women's divisions...these holes should be btwn 150' and 270'...that's ridiculous and outdated. Val, Des, and Burl can hit 360+ with superb accuracy. This is clearly a case of generalizing for the good of womens groups that dont include the top tier players...since the top tier players play in majors on champion calibur courses...this generalization is either outdated, or flat out should not be adhered to for majors.

I still dont see why pro women in open should play from shorter tees. If they all play from the same tees wouldnt it still be fair? I certianly think it would add to an overall sense of mutual respect and would avoid making players of the fairer sex feel infantalized.

Actually, it clearly says they should play from the Blues, check again.

I'll say it again, it's not about pure distance! You can have an alternate tee position the same distance away, but with more open lines. I couldn't care less if they can throw 500', their ratings, which are an objective gender neutral assessment of how they'll play, say that they'll take more shots than the Open players if they play from the same tees.

Gold: The effective lengths for reachable holes typically range
from 230 - 360 feet.

Blue: The effective lengths for reachable holes typically range
from 185 - 310 feet.

Not that it says effective length, which isn't just tee-pin distance, it takes into account both elevation change and foliage density, so can have a tee-pin distance longer or shorter than the effective length...

Now we all know that Kallstrom et al can bomb it 500', but that doesn't mean that every hole has to be 480' to provide them with a challenge. But they'll hit a gap at 350' more often than someone rated 950, and therefore the scoring on that hole will be an even mix of 2s and 3s for the 1000 rated players.

For the 950 rated players, they'll hit that gap much less often, and the scores will be mostly 3s, with maybe a handful of 2s. That doesn't do much for the scoring; it doesn't spread the field.

If you move the tee 40' closer, or move it around so the gap is bigger/easier to hit, the scoring goes back to a mix of 2s and 3s, which is better for the competition.

It's not about male/female, it's about skill levels. You'll notice that Des didn't ask to play from the Gold tees, she just said that playing from White was wrong, her player rating is not a White level player. The right ones are Blue...

 

[Aaron_D]

um...im pretty sure it says open women should play from the whites. Am I wrong that directly below the 'White Tee' box it says 'Open Women'. (Notice under gold it just says open...but w\e) Im clearly taking the argument farther than Des. Im mostly just trying to see where this argument goes...

How are ratings gender neutral when they are based on criteria that is affected by gender...which they are.--in this case especially--where the open women were made to play from the white tees apparently based on the PDGA course design guidelines which clearly (to me anyway) has the words 'Open Women' directly below 'White Tees'...I realize that there is also a rating guideline box, but that was clearly not what was ruled on in this case. It is my understanding that open does not mean open women since open women is stated elsewhere....under white tees.

You can have an alternate tee position the same distance away, but with more open lines

can but never do.

If you move the tee 40' closer, or move it around so the gap is bigger/easier to hit, the scoring goes back to a mix of 2s and 3s, which is better for the competition.

Why is it better for competetion? Shouldnt players who can throw longer and more accurately at closer distances be rewarded with higher scores? Ratings Schmatings....what are they based on anyway? Disc golf tourneys are won with low scores not high ratings....what is their purpose? I am not asking to be rude. I truly do not know what purpose they serve.

her player rating is not a White level player

yes but she does play in Womens Open. which it appears to suggest play from the whites.

 

[Bruce1]

um...im pretty sure it says open women should play from the whites. Am I wrong that directly below the 'White Tee' box it says 'Open Women'. (Notice under gold it just says open...but w\e) Im clearly taking the argument farther than Des. Im mostly just trying to see where this argument goes...

For Daily Pro, yes. The line above it says that for Pros at Majors, FPO, MGP & MGS should play from Blues...

How are ratings gender neutral when they are based on criteria that is affected by gender...which they are.--in this case especially--where the open women were made to play from the white tees

How are they affected by gender? They're a pure measurement of how you played (or will play, on average) against the course. A 950 women and a 950 man will each, on average, shoot the same score on a given course configuration. At the British Open, I played with Burl, and our ratings were 2 points apart at the time. I beat her by a shot overall over 3 rounds. How has her gender affected her rating?

Why is it better for competetion? Shouldnt players who can throw longer and more accurately at closer distances be rewarded with higher scores?

Yes, and that's exactly the point!! If you make a hole too hard for a particular skill level, no one birdies it, but everyone pars it, so you don't differentiate between the good and average players. If you make the hole slightly easier, the better players will birdie it, while the average player still pars it, and you end up with an effective competition. That's why you play from tees designed for your skill level.

The same is true in reverse for playing the easier tees, which is Des' point. From the Whites everyone is getting birdies, and the better players cannot get ahead of the average ones, short of getting aces.

 

[dgdave]

I totally agree with Des. Top players should not have to play pitch and putt golf with luck being a major factor. And the hanging basket, come on. While I have played at tournies with hanging baskets (gotta love the friz) and the MSDGC has one, that's those tournies atmosphere. The worlds should not have novelties like that.

 

[mshelton]

The worlds should not have novelties like that.

I gotta agree, to me it seems on the same lines of putting a putt putt windmill on a green for the ball golf British Open.

 

[matchu]

the video seems messes up did anyone save it, and can send it to me?

thanks, in advanced (that is blue tees)

 

[Fritz]

You know what's funny at AM World's all divisions played from the same Tees. The ladies did not have different tee boxes nor did the juniors.
That's amazing they did that to the pro women. I would be just as pissed as Des is. WTF is up with that hanging basket???

Wow she let em have it and deservingly so.
Sucks they have taken the distance out of some of the top distance players like Des and Val.
Like she said Rocs and Putters as the majority of your throws is not World Championship caliber.

 

[Jimmy]

http://www.pdga.com/documents/2007/07ProWorldsCompleteConfirmationPackage.pdf

Are women allowed to play in Pro Open? It doesn't seem that the division classifications specify that the players must be men. It only seems to stipulate that women's division players must be women. I could easily be wrong, as I am an expert on the rules by no means. Other documents, such as the one posted above, state "men." Perhaps if the top women wanted to, they could play in the Pro Open division. If they cannot, my statement is voided. If they can, then maybe some of them should (baggers :wink: ). I imagine the course is designed, as the Open is, to satisfy the many rather than the few. It's kind of like in poker, during the 2004 World Series, Annie Duke refused to play in the Women's event, because she felt it was demeaning to women. Most women, however, still play in the ladies event.
Wasn't there a chick that tried to play with the men in ball golf? Did she ever qualify for an event?

 

[matchu]

women can play in a mans division.

I figured out how to play the video, and I must say that even upset Des is still a great ambassador!

btw, dual monitors and live scoring at work! nice

 

[Fritz]

http://www.pdga.com/documents/2007/07ProWorldsCompleteConfirmationPackage.pdf

Are women allowed to play in Pro Open? It doesn't seem that the division classifications specify that the players must be men. It only seems to stipulate that women's division players must be women. I could easily be wrong, as I am an expert on the rules by no means. Other documents, such as the one posted above, state "men." Perhaps if the top women wanted to, they could play in the Pro Open division. If they cannot, my statement is voided. If they can, then maybe some of them should (baggers :wink: ). I imagine the course is designed, as the Open is, to satisfy the many rather than the few. It's kind of like in poker, during the 2004 World Series, Annie Duke refused to play in the Women's event, because she felt it was demeaning to women. Most women, however, still play in the ladies event.
Wasn't there a chick that tried to play with the men in ball golf? Did she ever qualify for an event?

Yes Anika Sornenson, and she did qualify and she finished in the top 10.

Why is the AM women play from the "mens" tees and Juniors yet at the PRO worlds they get screwed and play from the sissy tees? I think Des has a right to be pissed. By giving the ladies a tee box that is up closer, takes away some strengths that the big arm girls have. I also agree with the trees in the middle of a fairway, that's BS/

 

[some call me...tim?]

the video seems messes up did anyone save it, and can send it to me?

thanks, in advanced (that is blue tees)

The windows media format messed up for me too, but the quicktime worked all right. Did you try both?

 

[matchu]

yes, I was able to view the quicktime. thanks

 

[Will Aubrey]

Des let them have it but I agree with everything she said. That hanging basket is RETARDED.

 

[Fritz]

Des let them have it but I agree with everything she said. That hanging basket is RETARDED.

^^^^^

 

[ChrisULM]

oops, ignore this