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difficulty affect your rating?

BrotherDave

Crushing on Zoe and Hating on Keegan
Diamond level trusted reviewer
Joined
Jan 7, 2009
Messages
17,056
Location
Millwall
I played Renny for the 1st time and it kicked my ass up and down Billy Graham Pkwy. I was playing awful anyway since I was knocking off about 3 months of rust from rehabbing my arm but man. My question is this, do you ever rank a course lower or higher if it was hard? I personally try to factor in fun in my rating as an intangible to justify a half disc here and there but I had no fun at all at Renny. But it is a great course. Left me at a crossroads.
 
Hi Dave, I've played Renny and I know your pain.

I was hard on it but not because its hard, try Campgaw sometime ( climbing up and down the massive elevation changes here will kill you here. But the layout, the beauty, the ease of navigation here are awesome and fun), and I do not think being hard alone should effect your score. Some people like pain.

For me its the total package. However, if its painful but no fun I think it needs to reflect that. Because believe me I really struggled with my review and rating on this course more than any other. But, man it has to be fun or why do I want to do this.
 
I usually rate a course higher for difficulty, but did lower the rating of one because too many baskets were set on slopes. i guess its a matter of if the difficulty seems fair in that you have an oppertuinity for a nice shot, rather than super densely forested "throw and hope" holes. boo for those. If a course kicks my ass it just makes me want to go back and kick its ass. (+14 at Stafford Lake today- ouch)
 
There is no exact formula. A course can be well designed but have repetitive basket placements(most on slopes or most blind) having to spot every basket can take out a lot of fun from a round no matter how well designed the course is. I have found myself overlooking flaws if a course is challenging with breath taking views from the tee pad. A really hard to navigate course can ruin a round for some people. So difficulty is one of the main aspects of a course that sets the foundation for a quality round of golf. But there are other things that can tear down that foundation. A busy course for some is a con. Poison ivy for some is an automatic rating killer. Look man, poison ivy grows in 99% of heavily wooded courses. So do other weeds and vines. You can't honestly expect someone to go out in the woods and search out and destroy all of the ivy when about 95% or more of DG courses are free. It's like insects in the summer, there is nothing that anyone can do about it. Just spray on some repellant and try to stay on the fairway and remember that there are 5 times the amount of courses today than 20 years ago. so cut them some slack, if the design and landscape are incredible don't let some part of nature that you can't control ruin your round and trump a bunch of great qualities with a jaded angry review.
 
Here's my take-- first, people need to determine the course level. If you play a course that's above your player level you'll find it very difficult. Ex. - If one is a White level player (~900 rating) then you'll get beat up by a Gold level course designed for 1000 rated players. That's why most people, myself included, get crushed by Renny.

Second, here's another thought on difficulty and course rating-- The amount of Challenge for top level players is part of the quality of a course. The very best courses should challenge the world's very best players. The best courses need length, challenging terrain, and risk vs. reward. Lower level courses, like Green, should be more open with less punitive fairways and greens to be fun for newer and less skilled players, so their very design is different than those of the highest level Gold courses. For example, if Renaissance had every hole at 200 ft. or less, and the greens weren't as tough, the course wouldn't be as good. So only courses for the highest level of player should get the highest ratings.
 
good point. I have noticed that upper level players tend to be less likely to give a course a higher rating than the rest of us and I think that it makes sense. I just think that with the pace at which Disc golf is growing has lowered the over all skill rating and experience level of the Disc golf community. But this web site can help raise skill levels and equipment knowledge which has led to some good golfers that have only been playing a year or so. You can look at the total of years played of each reviewer so the reader can weigh that in also and some people have their personal player ranking in their profile.
 
I usually don't factor in the "dificulty" into my rating since that is pretty subjective as stated in other posts- I usually try to mention if it is difficult due to technical, wooded holes or super long holes so people have an idea of what to expect
 
I was pretty generous in my review of Renny, but I tried to make it abundantly clear that I had less fun there then in a Turkish prison. I don't know if I can be more helpful than that. I can also see how really good players would skimp out on reviews like 80played said but it seems like with all the new courses springing up it seems important for oldtimers to review them to balance out the inevitable noobs that will.
 
I would think that the best courses would have both a hard and an easy layout. So that depending on how you are feeling on any given day, you can still go to that same course and have a fun round. But it's super hard to do that, especially because every putting area is going to be the same for everyone, so you couldn't make the putting areas too hard.
 
I think most people factor difficulty into their rating even if only subconciously. When I review a course I am giving my personal opinion of what I thought of the course. If I didn't like it and have fun there it will not get a high rating. Certainly your own skill level could affect your enjoyment. I disagree with Olorin about only the most difficult courses getting the highest ratings and I do not knock a course down if it is "easy".
 
I think a course that can add the option of being difficult greatly adds to the course's appeal. That being said, a course that is so difficult that it seems to be specifically designed for pro and advanced players makes it impractical for lesser skilled players or much other purpose than tournaments, so yeah I'd call that a legitimate detraction, particularly if that course doesn't offer a lite version (shorter pads).
 
For me there is hard and good and hard and stupid. CSUMB Oaks was hard stupid for me and Solitude was hard good, just to use examples from my recent road trip.
 
I think most people factor difficulty into their rating even if only subconciously. When I review a course I am giving my personal opinion of what I thought of the course. If I didn't like it and have fun there it will not get a high rating. Certainly your own skill level could affect your enjoyment. I disagree with Olorin about only the most difficult courses getting the highest ratings and I do not knock a course down if it is "easy".

I try to take these unconscious variables and force me to make them conscious. I feel like I manage to do this pretty well since have analyzed my motivations for why I go out to play as I outline in my profile:

I base my "personal addiction factor" on how a given course would feed these desires:
1) To be challenged by the course
2) To have fun with friends
3) To relax and enjoy nature in a beautiful and secluded setting
4) To enjoy a nice birdie fest
I go out to play with a pretty equal mix of these motivations over the course of a month.


From these I define the courses that best feed these desires.

Some people have lower and higher needs/motivations in these area (and other areas too). I would encourage reviewers to do something similar: analyze and give full disclosure about motivations.

I have seen people make comments like "I rated this course low because there are too many trees and I hate too many trees". While, I personally love courses with lots of trees, their comment is helpful to me.
 
When I rate courses, I try to judge what skill level the course is optimized for, and include that in my rating. A short course that is ideal for beginner players can get a high rating from me if it's the best beginner course imaginable.

In turn, a gold/pro-level course can get a lousy rating if it's just not a well designed course for the skill level it's targeting.

Yes, some courses are designed for players of multiple skill levels -- usually through multiple tees, sometimes (rare) through multiple baskets on each hole as well as multiple tees. Multiple baskets are really the best option, since they can provide easier, less-punative putting areas for less-skilled players.

That said, Renaissance/Renny Gold is in my top five favorite places to play of the 150+ courses I've been to... IF I'm with other players who can enjoy that kind of course. I personally LOVE THE CHALLENGE. Renny is just such an amazing place, with so little room for error and so many memorable shots that it just boggles my mind. I've considered moving to Charlotte just for the courses -- Renny first and foremost. But for what it's worth, Renny has been among my favorite courses since I first played it ~7 years ago as an ~900-rated player. But I just love a challenge, and I love shot variety, and risk/reward, and fast greens, and Renny has all of those things in spades.

All of that said, in a few weeks, I'm planning to be down in Charlotte with my girlfriend, and she wants to play Renaissance with me. Which could prove to be interesting. Renny was definitely not designed for her (she's been playing ~6 months and drives ~150'). I don't know how that will change the experience...

But back to the basic question: I don't factor in difficulty as an independent variable when rating a course -- I calculate in APPROPRIATE difficulty as part of overall course design and the intended skill level of players.

An example of a park that is difficult without a good balance of difficulty/design is Gateway Park - West in Fort Worth, TX. You can read my review for what I mean. But the park -- at this stage in it's development -- isn't a good park for players of any skill level.

A difficult, blue- or gold-level course needs to provide score separation between players of different skill levels. Every hole needs to have at least one defined line to the basket that is a matter of skill, not luck. Better players will hit the line more often and be rewarded for their skill. Renny Gold is always this way -- better players will score better, and their is always a line (or lines) to the basket. Poor course design causes players of different skill levels to cluster near the same scores, with luck more a scoring factor than skill. When a course favors luck over skill -- especially when poor design emphasizes luck over skill to artificially create the appearance of difficulty -- I give a course an appropriately poor rating, reflecting the poor design.
 
When I rate courses, I try to judge what skill level the course is optimized for, and include that in my rating. A short course that is ideal for beginner players can get a high rating from me if it's the best beginner course imaginable.

Great post t i m! All of it is spot on in my book. I would rate that way if this site was set up to rate that way.

The problem is, there is no way here to separate out the intended skill level of courses, so doing things this way makes it look like you are equating Renny Gold to an excellently designed pitch and putt course that does a great job of drawing beginners in. (My ratings list does something similar and I have the same problem: I have 2 lists - one for 18 and more hole courses and one for less than 18.)

Another problem is that doing things this way takes a lot of experience - both in playing a lot of courses and watching a lot of people play. This sort of experience is few and far between on this site, IMO.

And yet another problem: It seems like a good portion of courses are designed to have a little bit for every skill level - a smorgasbord approach. How do you rate (categorize, more accurately) those?
 
Great post t i m! All of it is spot on in my book. I would rate that way if this site was set up to rate that way.

The problem is, there is no way here to separate out the intended skill level of courses, so doing things this way makes it look like you are equating Renny Gold to an excellently designed pitch and putt course that does a great job of drawing beginners in. (My ratings list does something similar and I have the same problem: I have 2 lists - one for 18 and more hole courses and one for less than 18.)

Another problem is that doing things this way takes a lot of experience - both in playing a lot of courses and watching a lot of people play. This sort of experience is few and far between on this site, IMO.

And yet another problem: It seems like a good portion of courses are designed to have a little bit for every skill level - a smorgasbord approach. How do you rate (categorize, more accurately) those?

Dave,
I feel like I have enough experience to accurately categorize a course -- maybe that's personal arrogance, but I think after playing 150+ courses across the country for the past 11 years, and being a highly critical-thinker, that I've got the experience to stand behind a course-level based approach. And I freely admit that most players don't have the breadth of experience to rate the same way.

However, I think that most people -- well before they learn how to rate well -- do get a rough idea of their skill level (red/white/blue/gold), or at least get an idea of whether or not they like playing challenging courses. So I think far more people can benefit from level-based reviews than can write them, if that makes sense.

And in some ways, I do think there is a cap to how good a less-challenging course can be. I don't expect to ever play a five-star, SSA-46 course. I just don't think it exists. I'm not saying it CAN'T exist -- just that I don't think it exists now, and I don't think it is ever likely to exist.

I can picture a hypothetical SSA-46 course that is comprised of stunning shots on a Hawaiian landscape or somewhere similar, with unbelievable, exhilarating elevation shots through rainforests and off seaside cliffs, fresh fruit falling on the course, casual-lie crystal clear lagoon water, pristine sand tees and the chance to play 18 holes barefoot in paradise. I could give a course like that five stars even if I shot mid-40s and never picked up anything except a putter. You see what I mean? That would be a course geared towards beginners in terms of skill that yet created a sense of fun that made it exhilarating and refreshing for every level of player.

For me, for a beginner-level course to score a 4.0 or better, it had better offer something for more experienced players -- either in terms of exciting, memorable shots, or great risk/reward, or unbelievable views, etc...

Kereiakes Park in Bowling Green, KY, is a course that is fun no matter what the skill level, in part because it has so many cool shots, beautiful trees and is so well taken care of. They have the details right. It deserves it's 4.14-rating, even though it isn't a super-hard course (I think SSA is ~49).

Another couple of stand-out courses are Unami Creek in Quakertown, PA, and Signal View in Maurertown, VA. Both are exceptional 9-hole courses. Great shot variety, good elevation, soothing scenery. Good tees and course flow... Unami is one of the most fun courses I've ever played, and it's brief 9-holes are beautifully designed and are fun for new and old players. The highest praise I can give it is that my girlfriend and I both had a blast playing there... despite the fact that I throw 970+ golf, and I'm betting if she were to shoot a rated-round, it would be closer to a 700... we're about as radically different as you can get on skill level, and still both had an awesome time playing that course. Well worth checking out if you ever get the chance... and it's near Nockamixon, which is it's own discussion.

As for your question about courses with a Smorgasboard approach to design -- a mix of different shots trying to appeal to all levels of players -- I'd say that most of those smorgasboard courses are probably optimized for white-level (~900-rated) players, and are trying to offer a few fun shots for everyone. They can be entertaining, and serve their purpose, and are fun for groups of mixed skill to play together. I'd probably give most of those somewhere around an average rating, depending on the details of the course -- maintenance, shot variety, aesthetics, fun-factor, amenities, etc...

I think that as this site sorts itself out, many of the most elite courses are going to be those that offer legitimate, intentionally-designed options for every skill level. The best example I can think of is Iron Hill in Neward, DE. Give it another year, and it will be the textbook example of how to design a world-class course.

They are building three sets of tees: gold, blue and I'm not sure if the third set is white or red... and there are going to be two permanent pins per hole. The goal is to make it so that the course plays Par 72 to the long baskets for anyone who plays their skill level teeboxes... What I mean is that a 900-rated player who plays the white boxes should shoot a 72; a 950-rated player who plays the blue boxes should shoot a 72; a 1000-rated player who plays the gold boxes should shoot a 72. The same approach is being taken for the shorter pins... but I'm not sure what the shorter par is going to be. I'm guessing somewhere around 63.

This will give everyone the option of playing a layout appropriate to their skill level. Newer players can play the short tees to short pins, which will probably be close to 30 strokes easier for them than the gold tees to long baskets.

And the great thing about the design is that it's being done in such a way so that the walking isn't ridiculous... for instance, if you're playing the short baskets, there will be walking trails taking you across to the shorter tees after you hole out. If you're playing the longest layout, it flows naturally as well. An immense amount of time and planning has been done to ensure that each of the six eventual course options will flow well and keep people moving through the course.

The shot variety and challenge are also being optimized for the intended player level. The gold boxes are forcing tighter lines and some mega-power shots that less-experienced players simply won't have in their arsenal. The long pin placements have much faster greens, tighter gaps and higher risk/reward layups than the short pins... in short, the design is simply awesome. Give it a year, then check it out... it's come a long way, and it's going to be even better before they are done.

I think more and more courses being designed now are being put in by people who are looking for ways to go beyond the norm and design epic courses. We need all levels of courses. Heck, I hope to see new courses put in that are intended and optimized for the best possible SuperClass experience -- and that don't allow other discs. I think SuperClass is more accessible and family friendly than disc golf. One or two discs (or lids) and a lot more glide-to-power rato than "real discs." Far less equipment, less danger, and equal fun.

But I also hope that more Iron Hill type courses are designed to push the boundaries of the sport. It's a different physical game and a different mental game to play a par-70+ course. You can take a bunch of fives and sixes and still cash in pro. Contrast that to a non-sanctioned event last weekend at Calvert Park in College Park, MD, where they played three rounds -- one each from the "red, white, and blue" tees... only a handful of people showed up, but the winning scores were 133 strokes total for 54 holes... -- an average of almost 10-strokes under par per round (less than 2.5 strokes/hole)... that's just silly, and is a different sport than a course where people are shooting 70+ strokes per 18 holes (~4 strokes/hole)... the skillsets are different, the mental game is different, the physical game is different.

And the ratings should be different. The problem -- as you've identified -- is that there are no clear distinctions between courses geared towards different skill levels. But despite the blurred lines, those of us with experience can offer our best perspectives, and hope that that is good enough to help out some of our fellow players.
 
When I rate courses, I try to judge what skill level the course is optimized for, and include that in my rating.
I agree 100%! When it can be done I still think this is one of the most valuable services we can provide in our reviews. This is the point I tried to make in the thread "Rating according to Course Level" and to a lesser extent in "Course Levels". I determine course levels numerically based on Level scoring averages compared to Gold CR Par. The Level SA that is closest to Gold CR Par is the level I assign to that layout.

A short course that is ideal for beginner players can get a high rating from me if it's the best beginner course imaginable.

In turn, a gold/pro-level course can get a lousy rating if it's just not a well designed course for the skill level it's targeting.
Agreed as well

The problem is, there is no way here to separate out the intended skill level of courses, so doing things this way makes it look like you are equating Renny Gold to an excellently designed pitch and putt course that does a great job of drawing beginners in.
Well put. This is the main drawback of this approach. That's why if there was a Red level course with every feature just as good as Renny I'd give Renny a slightly higher rating. I actually use a 0-10 scale, so the hypothetical Red course might be as high as 9.3 while Renny is a 9.9

Another problem is that doing things this way takes a lot of experience - both in playing a lot of courses and watching a lot of people play. This sort of experience is few and far between on this site, IMO.

And yet another problem: It seems like a good portion of courses are designed to have a little bit for every skill level - a smorgasbord approach. How do you rate (categorize, more accurately) those?
More excellent points. There are so many challenges to overcome, aren't there?

Dave,
I feel like I have enough experience to accurately categorize a course -- ...that I've got the experience to stand behind a course-level based approach. And I freely admit that most players don't have the breadth of experience to rate the same way.

So I think far more people can benefit from level-based reviews than can write them, if that makes sense.

And in some ways, I do think there is a cap to how good a less-challenging course can be. I don't expect to ever play a five-star, SSA-46 course. I just don't think it exists. I'm not saying it CAN'T exist -- just that I don't think it exists now, and I don't think it is ever likely to exist.
Excellent response! You also have to take into account that beginner courses are intentionally designed to have more wide open fairways, more open greens, less fast greens, less OB, etc. To me these legitimate factors make those shorter courses less interesting, less fun, and thus get a lower rating.
 
I make a conscious effort to evaluate just the course, not how I played it, when it comes time to review. But its pretty hard to completely separate your own abilities from rating a course. Whats challenging to me isn't necessarily going to be challenging to others. So I try to think of a course in terms of did the designer use the available land to work in as many obstacles/tough lines as is possible.
 
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For me there is hard and good and hard and stupid. CSUMB Oaks was hard stupid for me and Solitude was hard good, just to use examples from my recent road trip.

I totally agree...especially with the CSUMB as an example...it was excrutiating to even finish that course...
 

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