Do big people have a natural distance advantage?

[MNcyclone]

That doesn't make any sense. I can get my elbow out front in the same way using pendulum physics in the shoulder as I can simply exerting muscle to pull the elbow out. The difference is that there is more energy in the system if you use all of the forces available. If what you are saying is true, everyone would be able to throw max D with Beato drills. This isn't the case, so there must be a reason why. Your understanding is that the large muscles are loaded up when the elbow is out front, but if you simply place your elbow in such a position the muscles are in fact not loaded up. Why? Because there is less energy in the system.

You said earlier that the shoulder was to just get the disc moving in the right direction. In that statement you are agreeing with me. The entire system, including the disc, has a moment of inertia. The moment of inertia is the required force to start movement. When you "get the disc going in the right direction", you have in fact exerted force to overcome the moment of inertia which would be dragging your system down without the shoulder part of the system. When you throw with a Beato drill, you have to overcome the moment of inertia and that takes up some of the energy of the system as a whole.

You also stated that you have to actively pull the elbow out; is this not actually using the shoulder as a fulcrum? You are exerting force, this time from the arm instead of from the body, on the elbow which pivots on the shoulder through the arm.

 

[LeewayeDiscGolf]

Size might help on certain types of shots in specific situations, but for the most part I don't think size makes a difference. I'm 6' 2'' tall and 240 lbs. and my 14 year old son crushes me when it comes to wide open distance. However, having a son who just started shaving, I do feel mustaches give throwers a significant distance advantage.

 

[sidewinder22]

The real golf swing is more like a triple pendulum with the 'beam' between the neck and the shoulder forming the third arm of the pendulum. The essence of a good golf swing is the reverse of the ice skater effect, the transfer of energy with unfolding. The total power produced by the golfer (about 2.5 kW for a professional) comes from the biggest muscles in the body, the upper legs and torso. The problem is how to transfer this power, from the muscles, through the shoulders, arms, club, and eventually, to the ball.

From the physics point of view, the trebuchet is an upside-down golfer; the raised weight represents the torque applied through the shoulders, the long wooden beam represents the golfer's arms, and the rope sling represents the shaft of the golf club. In the case of disc golf its just the hand, not the club shaft that represents the sling, which is a much shorter lever. In ball golf the club is just an extension of the hand.

Many people have trouble believing that you do not need to use wrist torque to have an effective golf swing. But to prove a point, some stunt golfers use drivers with a section of rubber tube or dog chain replacing part of the shaft. They still hit the golf ball a long way, in fact, much the same distance as with a proper shaft. With such a flexible shaft, there is no way that wrist torque can have any effect.

Remember that almost all the energy transfer to the club is due to tension in the shaft; the shaft does not need to be stiff, because the vast majority of the force it transmits is along the length of the shaft. If the club had a perfectly flexible shaft, like the rope sling of a trebuchet, then there is no way to apply wrist torque to get any action from the clubhead. Yet the trebuchet was a very effective siege weapon. It was the best, most powerful catapult in warfare for centuries until it was replaced by gunpowder-powered cannons, demonstrating that "wrist torque" isn't all that important.

 

[ArcheType]

good luck getting sidewinder22 to ever admit the possibility of him being wrong. He throws 700' and has a Master's Degree in both Physics and Chemistry, and a Bachelor's in Humanities. He is truly gods gift to disc golf.

 

[CwAlbino]

This thread has turned into quite the physics thread, hooray another thread to add to my useful text file. I'll have to read it all later instead of skimming. One thing I will add to the mix though of this lever use talk.


You all are talking about bent arm throws, what about swedish lever style. It's got lever in it for a reason

There's too much talk of kenetic, when the discussion should be on the potential. It should not matter who can throw what distance, physics will show the longer armed guys can throw farther. They just might not have the mechanics and core strength to bring their levers around at the speed they should be.

 

[sidewinder22]

good luck getting sidewinder22 to ever admit the possibility of him being wrong. He throws 700' and has a Master's Degree in both Physics and Chemistry, and a Bachelor's in Humanities. He is truly gods gift to disc golf.

You're actually very close in regard to my degrees, and about ever being wrong when it comes to physics. But I don't throw 700' yet nor ever claimed to have, and I'm certain I'm not a gift of any deity.

 

[JoshEpoo]

An arm is not like a trebuchet.

The whole debate started because of this. Just because it's attached to your body you are just needlessly complicating the fact that bent elbow throwing is like a trebuchet launching a projectile. I'd suggest you practice trying to whip your upper arm in the manner you suggest and see how it works. Then reconsider this discussion...

 

[The Hammer]

I can't believe this is still going.

 

[Lithicon]

Any thread that starts with physics mentioned always runs for a while, unless there is one already running. They happen every 3-6 months.

It's been a little longer than that since I've been here. But, I remember a big one last year I think about disc physics and what made them fly the way they do. Was quite a ways longer than this one.

 

[jenb]

The length of the levers is a major factor, but so is the speed at which the levers move. So fast twitch muscles are another major factor. In that sense, an arm is not like a trebuchet, because the garvitational acceleration of the weight on the trebuchet is constant, and the rate at which an object falls is not dependent on its size or weight. The only reason the amount of weight matters on a trebuchet counterweight because it must have enough momentum counter the weight of the object to be launched, and it is a heavy object.

But with an arm, a counterweight is not being used. The speed and momentum are being achieved differently. But the length of the arm matters, and so does the ability to get that arm up to speed. I don't see any little people or children throwing 800 feet. And the farthest throwing men throw almost twice as far as the farthest throwing women. To the extent some so called "little guys" are throwing 500', I don't know any that are 5'2", do you?

 

[CwAlbino]

Any thread that starts with physics mentioned always runs for a while, unless there is one already running. They happen every 3-6 months.

It's been a little longer than that since I've been here. But, I remember a big one last year I think about disc physics and what made them fly the way they do. Was quite a ways longer than this one.

Shorter actually (but more comprehensive)

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22608&page=14

 

[Lithicon]

I don't think that was the one, there was one bigger than that I believe.

 

[Lithicon]

I'm searching my logs, but I think I found it. And, I could be wrong, but I think it eventually turned into a pissing match at some point and the majority was sent to the landfill. If not, I'll post a link here. I can't remember now.

 

[Lithicon]

Found it, barely longer, but I do believe some might have been put in the landfill still.
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16911

 

[kcplease]

more reach back=more distance=more room for snap=more speed=more distance.

Yes, we do have an advantage.

 

[sidewinder22]

The length of the levers is a major factor, but so is the speed at which the levers move. So fast twitch muscles are another major factor. In that sense, an arm is not like a trebuchet, because the garvitational acceleration of the weight on the trebuchet is constant, and the rate at which an object falls is not dependent on its size or weight. The only reason the amount of weight matters on a trebuchet counterweight because it must have enough momentum counter the weight of the object to be launched, and it is a heavy object.

But with an arm, a counterweight is not being used. The speed and momentum are being achieved differently. But the length of the arm matters, and so does the ability to get that arm up to speed. I don't see any little people or children throwing 800 feet. And the farthest throwing men throw almost twice as far as the farthest throwing women. To the extent some so called "little guys" are throwing 500', I don't know any that are 5'2", do you?

In order to have leverage on an object there has to be counterweight, it doesn't work any other way. There is no Force without mass, muscle is mass. Yes...adult body weight doesn't play a significant role because the disc's mass is such a small percentage of body weight. The lever length is a major factor as you said, but it depends on the levers. A lot of people call average height 5'9" like Nikko and Ken Jarvis "little" because we are often talking about athletes which tend to be taller. Now Brad Hammock is maybe 5'4", but he still throws 500'.

This just proves that the most important lever is the hips. Increasing hip speed multiplies about 10x fold to arm speed in the average male. Skinny hips and longer arms multiply this even more. Hand size and grip strength also play a big role as a better grip will transfer more power to the disc. This is probably why you don't see that many women throwing far with smaller/weaker hands and women also tend to have wider hips and shorter arms compare to men so the hip multiplier is less effective maybe about 6x or so.

So if you take a male and female all things being equal(height, weight, arms, form...) but hip width, the male has a bigger hip multiplier because the hip is not as far away from the center axis. Average male arm length is 30" to spine and hip is 3" to spine = 10x multiplier. Say female arm is 30" to spine and hips are 5" to spine = 6x multiplier.

 

[ColonelDracula]

In order to have leverage on an object there has to be counterweight, it doesn't work any other way.

Exactly. We can't see what's happening under the t-shirt, but what's happening when 600+ft. throwers are throwing ( Paul McBeth and Garrett Gurthie) is they are using strong abs/back/cores.

Try to bounce a ball off of the sand, then try off of the pavement. McBeth and Gurthie act like pavement, in that the disc gets repelled thoroughly.

Arm speed, grip, run-up, etc... are all relatively easy to work on - those things won't matter without a solid repelling object. What they're doing is providing a solid object from which the disc will be repelled from.

It's ab and back strength. Not to provide speed; it's to provide a solid repelling body.

 

[i_throw_bricks]

Throwing a disc is very similar to a trebuchet. There's a base, counterweight, lever, sling, and projectile.

Added weight to your wrist or hand won't help, it will slow your end acceleration and will probably injure yourself on followthrough since you don't release that weight. You want the most weight possible, furthest away from the base for the sling to work properly. Your wrist will want to keep moving instead of stopping to transfer the momentum to the disc. So there is no point adding extra weight between the counterweight and the actual projectile. Longer lever does provide more velocity.

I'd like to see a disc with weights added to opposite sides of the disc.

I meant the opposite wrist. But it's still a mute point.

 

[Triflusal]

I meant the opposite wrist. But it's still a mute point.

I guess no one can talk about it

 

[JoshEpoo]

MOOOOOOOOOOOOOt :gross: