Drive Leg Mechanics

[sidewinder22]

A pro case of getting stuck over the rubber?

I was looking for instances of "free-wheeling" form from pros earlier in their career. SW22 has gotten my eye to look out for getting "stuck over the rubber": losing momentum with weight trapped behind/over the drive leg and a less than ideal weight transfer. In my own journey I've gotten more interested in how bodies get hurt or compensate for form issues. I wondered if this is an interesting case.

Cale Leiviska is often mentioned to have smooth form ("Dr. Smooth"). I noticed a throw from 2012 where he has a knee brace on his drive leg, so I looked at his lower body mechanics. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like he's "stuck over the rubber." If you go frame by frame, there's a bit of a heavy loading on his back leg that appears to transfer weight late into the plant. Attached a few screen grabs. Cale's leg is internally rotating while the ball of his drive foot is relatively flat on the ground, and it looks like his butt isn't quite as far ahead to lead the throw. At the plant, Paul has his weight fully transferred and his foot fully everted. You can also see that Cale's upper body is significantly rotated forward and toward his plant leg relative to Paul, which might be compensating for Cale's lagging lower body weight and how he follows through.

Cale's still throwing and he hasn't blown out that drive knee as far as I know. I might be seeing shadows, so I thought I'd mention this case study if more experienced eyes wanted to weigh in!

Vid sources:
2012
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bh_O955VgBU&ab_channel=CentralCoastDiscGolf

2017
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fpuu8DfGHOI&ab_channel=rdmnks

2020
https://www.reddit.com/r/discgolf/comments/hq87j0/slowmotion_form_check_featuring_james_conrad/

McBeth 2017
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwYvav4xCR8&ab_channel=Michael

I don't think Cale is stuck. The tell tale sign is typically rising considerably during the throw.

 

[flatflip]

Yeah I don't think he's anywhere near as flexible as McBeth so he can't load up as heavily without the rest of his body moving forward; he can't quite get the same lag. Few people can. He's also not known for throwing super far (I mean he smashes but he's not in the top tier for distance on tour).

He may not have an idealized stroke -- he leaks forward a little bit, dropping his lead shoulder to gain some steam instead of straight up uncoiling like McB (and maybe this is a fxn of a bottom end that doesn't have the same umph?) -- but he seems to be really good at staying inside his stance and hitting his lines.

 

[Brychanus]

I don't think Cale is stuck. The tell tale sign is typically rising considerably during the throw.

Super helpful, thanks!

Yeah I don't think he's anywhere near as flexible as McBeth so he can't load up as heavily without the rest of his body moving forward; he can't quite get the same lag. Few people can. He's also not known for throwing super far (I mean he smashes but he's not in the top tier for distance on tour).

He may not have an idealized stroke -- he leaks forward a little bit, dropping his lead shoulder to gain some steam instead of straight up uncoiling like McB (and maybe this is a fxn of a bottom end that doesn't have the same umph?)

Interesting. I've seen that forward upper body tilt in a few folks, I guess Cale's just stuck out more to me. It's useful to know it's not necessarily related to/diagnostic of getting stuck over the rubber. Maybe Cale is loading/timing differently through his core than Paul?

 

[Brychanus]

He's squishing again (T ~0:54) over on Overthrow :-(

Also making some clear-cut active/passive distinctions.

 

[azplaya25]

This is one of the gems I've bookmarked from the slow plastic thread. I watched the riding the bull video probably ten times before I grabbed a mop handle and tried riding the bull myself. No other drill isolates this feeling as much as riding the bull imo

That is the correct feel, the rear femur rotates forward underneath the pelvis and shin rotates facing down/heel up foot eversion from the instep driving everything from the ground up and blocking the lower spine upright on the braced front femur creating internal torque or squeeze between the thighs to the torso/arm/disc. It's like riding a twirling bucking bull and holding upright on to the bull by squeezing the trailing leg into the bull or your front side.


What you see below in red is the guy being thrown off the bull with the legs separating and spine tipping over as the lower spine sways back out away from the target/front side, the front side posture has collapsed. You should be getting more upright into the finish extending the front side angles to whip the arm/disc through.

[

 

[timothy42b]

He's squishing again (T ~0:54) over on Overthrow :-(

Also making some clear-cut active/passive distinctions.

Again he has a comment from me that I didn't make. Guess i need to change some passwords?

 

[BruisedOoze]

Again he has a comment from me that I didn't make. Guess i need to change some passwords?

Don't think so. I don't believe displayed handles are unique for Youtube, only the underlying account name (email address).

It's two different accounts as far as I can tell, as only one has videos of you blowing brass and chucking discs. The other is empty.

It's likely someone with the same last initial?

 

[timothy42b]

Don't think so. I don't believe displayed handles are unique for Youtube, only the underlying account name (email address).

It's two different accounts as far as I can tell, as only one has videos of you blowing brass and chucking discs. The other is empty.

It's likely someone with the same last initial?

Thanks. I found the place where I could check my comment history. Those weren't there, so i guess I was fooled by the name and avatar matching.

 

[Brychanus]

This is one of the gems I’ve bookmarked from the slow plastic thread. I watched the riding the bull video probably ten times before I grabbed a mop handle and tried riding the bull myself. No other drill isolates this feeling as much as riding the bull imo

I'm finding this too.

I started sharing some of what I've learned here with local players, being careful not to over-reach my depth. The weight shift and lateral movement is very hard for people to get. It seems like people can acquire a lot of different ways to get their body moving laterally/targetward. More experienced/advanced players often get pieces of it down, but are often still missing a few parts that are increasingly hard to pick out by eye.

I think people (me until the past couple weeks!) get and stay so confused about how rotation occurs because it's easy to see and get focused on motions that look similar, but don't cause the right sequence. And we can all get hung up on the words we use, and develop other mechanics to rotate/"spin" the disc from well-meaning advice.

Also, a drill tip that might help others connect Drive Leg and Plant Leg. This morning, I synthesized Riding the Bull + Swivel Stairs motions on flat ground. It helps me drill the lateral move with the 3X drive leg (has been getting better), and in-out sweep and resulting toe-heel action into Crush the Can of the plant leg (current problem). I do it over progressively increasing stride lengths while maintaining balance.

If I feel my plant foot instep land flat, it means I didn't find the right plant stride angle, resulting in striding out too far and resulting in the hips opening too early & a weaker swing. If it hits toe first and I naturally settle into the plant from my drive leg, I feel the weight smoothly land and transfer more momentum up through my hips and core.

It's building a feel for a scalable smooth sideways walk with efficient weight transfer & hip loading/unloading that sets up a natural-feeling swing.

 

[sidewinder22]

53 min talks about the myth of 3x. Lot of good stuff in here.

 

[Brychanus]

General notice for those not following every plot - Socradeez called out some of the problems with using the phrase/concept "triple extension" in the Rocking the Hips thread, and I no longer say it. Other interesting exchanges about leg action over on that thread.

 

[JimmyBlundell]

Not that I can think of off hand.

Awh man. This has always been my biggest want when looking for someone anatomically like me. A shorter, ER dominant pro, bonus points if they're stocky too haha. I've always noticed Paul and drew and the likes seem to be very straight.

 

[sidewinder22]

Awh man. This has always been my biggest want when looking for someone anatomically like me. A shorter, ER dominant pro, bonus points if they're stocky too haha. I've always noticed Paul and drew and the likes seem to be very straight.

GG..

 

[JimmyBlundell]

GG..

I should try and emulate some things from him and see how they feel. I suppose you're right. The off arm really throws me off but his hop seems like it could really address some of the ER "issues" I face when trying to throw like someone else.

 

[Brychanus]

Depending on your stage of development, if you work on a hop I suggest that you keep the elbow tucked into the "don't spill the beverage" position at first. Get your feet & balance under you first & then mess with off arm styles. The hop can't do its work if you're rag dolling around.

 

[SocraDeez]

General notice for those not following every plot - Socradeez called out some of the problems with using the phrase/concept "triple extension" in the Rocking the Hips thread, and I no longer say it. Other interesting exchanges about leg action over on that thread.

Just started investigating this thread over the last month or so. I really disagree with the Top Velocity guy/ Brent Pourciau and all that baloney sandwich on triple extension in the Drive Leg Pitching Styles video ("how we power through triple extension into rotation" is pretty much "fire the back hip"). I also think he's well off base on the ankle kick stuff.

On the other hand, I really like Tread Athletics/ Ben Brewster* and also the Javelin guy Kevin Foster. Real nice intellectual attitudes there. Is this because I already agree with what they say? Maybe.

*side notes: some stuff from Tread that I liked: https://treadathletics.com/muscling-up/; video with Ben Brewster and other pitching coaches https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efzCtk4LSq8?t=3612

*Main point of this post disclaimer: this information is probably not helpful to anyone who does not already get most of it.*

Finally, we have the meats: I have thought long and hard about the drive leg over the last month or so. First, as has already been discussed, forget about (1x) back hip extension. It doesn't happen. The back hip should relax/ swing transitioning into the plant. Second, forget about (2x) back knee extension. It doesn't happen. The back knee flexes/ loads the ground energy into the glutes/ butt transitioning into the plant.

Third, (3x) ankle extension, also referred to as plantar flexion. This one does happen/is significant, but it's not quite as straightforward as you think. The plantar flexion ankle/ foot position is when you point your toes down, or when you lift your heel up. This is the gas pedal position/ move frequently referenced by SW22. Here is an image:

There's two main ways to "get to" the plantar flexion position or to "gas pedal". One - do a calf raise. Feel how this movement extends the knees and the hips. Calf raises are a triple extension 3x body position.

Two - do a squat in which the weight shifts towards your toes, knees flex, heels come up, shins angled forward and in (!) kind of forming a triangle with your feet and shins and knees. You should feel your glutes activate. Your body might want to fall forward. It's OK if it does. Flow with it. The wrong way to do this squat exercise is to keep the shins too straight/ weight into the heels without them coming up/ no feeling of body wanting to fall forward. That would be a quad dominant squat with more ankle dorsiflexion than plantar flexion.

Don't extend. Load. The positions look the same, but the muscles/body parts in play are very different. Once you get it, you get it.

Obligatory cool sports gif:

 

[Brychanus]

Just started investigating this thread over the last month or so...

... I have thought long and hard about the drive leg over the last month or so. First, as has already been discussed, forget about (1x) back hip extension. It doesn't happen. The back hip should relax/ swing transitioning into the plant. Second, forget about (2x) back knee extension. It doesn't happen. The back knee flexes/ loads the ground energy into the glutes/ butt transitioning into the plant.

Third, (3x) ankle extension, also referred to as plantar flexion. This one does happen/is significant, but it's not quite as straightforward as you think. The plantar flexion ankle/ foot position is when you point your toes down, or when you lift your heel up. This is the gas pedal position/ move frequently referenced by SW22.

Timely for me while I'm still trying to get my stupid legs in better order.

I'm inclined to agree with your observation & argument against 1x and 2x. I'm thinking about optimal energy transfer. Specifically, when the leg is compressing/releasing in the "pogo", the "ideal" action is that resists the compression just enough to transfer the force, where any additional anatomical extension is wasted energy. This became more clear to me just this week when realizing yet another reason why hopping seems so much easier for my body type - I can more easily get gravity to help do the work than those with more powerful legs/smaller bodies. The pogo sensation is very clear in that form to me, but it also now seems clear that if I get the right loading + hip hinge, there's no obvious anatomical knee extension. I think there's a swivel in the drive hip, but I also agree that there's not an obvious extension there. I think someone like Kuoksa vs. Feldberg have different absolute postures but the same mechanics:

I think one difference between Kuoksa and Feldberg/me is that the former has better developed legs. So I wouldn't be surprised if he can get much more force back against the ground in that crouched position. Lateral duck walks resisting the compression/flexion?

Your ankle/plantar description is helpful as is the exercise. If I'm doing it correctly and then try to transfer that loading in a lateral shift w/ hip hinge from the standing position, I think it's exactly the same as my drive leg compress/decompress mechanics in a standstill or hops where my feet are in a decent position. It's very distinct now that I try this exercise. I will tinker with this a bit more since I'm working on this right now, but I think you're onto it.

Always love your posts!

 

[Brychanus]

One nonrandom thought - the calf load/unload "triangle" exercise helps get the interior tension as you're striding into the plant, but I wouldn't want people to walk away thinking they just want to keep that interior load exclusively.

I think in e.g. a standstill you still get that load as you plant the rear foot, then as you keep rocking back the load is shifting to the outer foot & heel, then as you rock forward it comes through that interior load. Then you get interior load transitioning to the plant, and then rolls to outer foot and heel like a fluid walk.

I think this describes the pattern in SW22 pressure vid here, but he has less pressure fully landing into that back heel in transition to the plant stride during his hop/x-step.

 

[SocraDeez]

One nonrandom thought - the calf load/unload "triangle" exercise helps get the interior tension as you're striding into the plant, but I wouldn't want people to walk away thinking they just want to keep that interior load exclusively.

Thanks for evaluating. Yeah don't think you'd be able to move at all forward or laterally by limiting pressure/ tension to one part of the foot. So for those who need to hear it, this exercise is not meant* to be about pressure in a particular part of the foot/ feet during your throw.

*this exercise is also not meant to be about anything the plant foot does. Plant foot does the opposite/ decelerates. Deceleration is extension-heavy like a calf raise is.

For anybody reading, the Big Cheese message here is: please consider that there are multiple ways of getting into a similar-looking plantar flexion ankle position in the drive leg. That's it.

The shins angled forward and in/ triangle* bit was intended to prevent people from just squatting straight down. It's probably more important for the purposes of the exercise that the shins angle forward/ in front of you (don't do a wall sit position) because that's what helps the heel to lift and knee flex while the ankle plantar flexes. But the shins need to angle in a bit too because we're not just pushing straight down. We'd never be able to move anywhere if that were the case. Rather, the force into the ground we create to locomote is always angled/ torqued.

*

I think someone like Kuoksa vs. Feldberg have different absolute postures but the same mechanics

That's what makes all the endless debate so much fun. Here's an interesting exercise that I saw today. Stand up and get a soccer ball/ basketball/ anything that you can easily catch. First, try squatting down while holding the ball out in front of you (not too far in front/ use bent elbows like you were going to take a shot). You should be getting into pretty much the same position we've been talking about with the plantar flexion exercise. Shins go forward and in w/ ankle plantar flexed and heel slightly up.

Alright, stand back up with the ball. Now, just drop it and try to catch it before it hits the ground. You shouldn't bend at the waist to catch it but rather your feet should widen as your body drops. You should end up in the same position as the above exercise with your feet a little wider. But you got there a different way.

Get it? (on how it might relate to Kuoksa vs. Jarvis)

 

[Brychanus]

Wanted to add a little posture nugget that keeps popping up in my form. I think I finally started to clean up this week accidentally while I was struggling with footwork tweaks. It is helping me understand how to set up clean & easy drive leg mechanics & the transition into the plant. I keep seeing it across form reviews. It has been said before but hopefully the association to other ideas in the drive leg & plant stride is helpful to some.

In hindsight, I wish I'd gotten the point of this very basic posture contrast better drilled into my body now that I understand just how deeply it facilitates everything that follows.

In this very short vid, you can learn how to get into a "posterior chain" (sitting-like) loading and contrast it with "anterior chain" (squat-like) loading.

The posterior loading posture sets up your hip hinges and ability to freely tilt into the backswing and downswing - it's all built into the same posture. The contrast is what I'm focused on here- switch back and forth several times between the anterior and posterior load to teach the body the difference:



If you settle into that posture and just start "freewheeling" around in motion, doing Battering Rams, duck walking, trying the triangle drill, driving into the plant, swinging a disc over the plant leg etc., you can start to feel the connection between all the components of the swing. If you don't have the connection yet, you can keep returning to this basic posture and test out new moves - always starting from this posture reinforces the correct loading.

If you are correctly in a posterior loaded posture, it's much easier to achieve that "bouncy" feeling between the feet when standing or striding. I also found that it's drastically easier to "spring" into the plant stride from a posterior-loaded "sweet spot". If you're too anterior, the bounciness, springiness, and the rear leg counterbalance are at least partially prohibited, and you will see more "spinning out" of the drive and plant legs.

So if you struggle with this, I suggest practicing the contrast between the anterior and posterior loading as in the quick vid above to give your body/brain clear feedback. Then, set up in a posterior posture, and as you load that drive leg in a backswing, you should feel easier compression and a more natural rock back, and easier transition forward. It's possible to go too far, so you might need to fuss a little at first. The clear contrast to the fully anterior load "squat-like" load helps.

Just today, I realized that part of the problem with my own footwork was because my body didn't really ever fully encode the fundamental difference between an anterior and posterior loading, and I kind of ended up on some fine line between the two in most of my practice and real swings. So my legs were never consistently set up for success to begin with and were constantly confused even as other stuff has gotten much better, drifting between more anterior and posterior loading from swing to swing.

Of course, SW22 and others have pointed all this out before, but sometimes I have to bump back into it all over again later to get the point. I also wonder how much it really would have mattered earlier in my own development, but given the prevalence of "anterior/split loaders" out there, hopefully this inspires some to try it out and reinforce that clear brain/body feedback. :hfive:

Doing the drill above and then going back to SW22's Power of Posture might cause some lightbulb moments: