Fee threshold for success of private courses.

[Lewis]

The course owners that I've talked to recently that have been able to make it work say they're about able to break even on greens fees, but are able to put the business in the black through alcohol sales.

Ultimately, I think it is impossible for a disc golf course to turn a profit, if you include the land costs, and the property does not also generate income from other uses.

These discussion always make me wonder if many disc golfers are actually sovereign citizens or just the tightest people on earth. $10 is nothing to play a well groomed course but many gripe if everything in dg is not free due to the precedent set early on...

One of the most successful p2p disc golf enterprises in Oregon is Horning's Hideout. There are three courses, but disc golf is not the big income generator at Hornings. They also have fishing and camping on their grounds. However, they make the bulk of their money on weddings, concerts, and the warrior dash.

Reading through this, I'm reminded of a scene in Spaceballs:



I'm not saying you should sell a bunch of tee shirts, mugs, and other schlock with your private course's logo and such on it -- the lesson here is that disc golf may be the vehicle you can use to bring people in to shop at you "pro shop," where the real money from the land could be made. I don't know if you have Quick Trip or Racetrac in your neck of the woods, but there's almost certainly a brand of convenience store in your area like them. They only make a cent or two a gallon on the gasoline, if that, but they turn a profit by having a nice convenience store that draws you in when you're at the pump buying their 2-cents cheaper gas, and the convenience store is where they're able to turn their profit.

Just installing a disc golf course on vacant land may be far cheaper than building a decent pro shop on the same land, but if the local zoning allows it and you can get a business license and even a liquor license, and you have the money or can get a loan to build a pro shop, or if you can find land that has a building on it already, you could end up making more money selling food, drink, discs, etc., than you lose on the cost of building and maintaining everything. That is, however, a lot of ifs, and if you don't have any experience running a business like this, you may find you get laughed out of every bank you go to for a loan.

The best case scenario would be if you already own a valuable, large piece of land outright, that already has a building you can convert into a pro shop, and you can make enough selling discs, etc. to pay for the cost of maintenance. The general theme here is that disc golf in itself is not a viable money-maker on its own, but it could become a draw that you can use to sell something else to your patrons.

 

[reposado]

100-300 players a day?

figure anytime between 4 and 7 ish there are 4 people on each hole. that's like 150 people in prime time. and around 50 people play in morning and afternoon. more on the weekends. less when it's raining......more in july than in april, but, yeah there are always people there.

How much do the Maine courses charge to play? Is it per round or per day?

it varies. most often it is something like $5 for a round and $10 for a day

 

[reposado]

Do they cover the costs of purchasing the land? I haven't played those courses, and have no idea what land costs there are like. But I am aware that they are successful, on some level, for the very reason you cite.

After I posted about it being impossible, I started thinking about Blue Ribbon Pines. I've heard that it's doing very well but, again, I'm not sure if that means well enough to cover the land costs. It might.

it depends. some of them are on properties that are also farms. sometime there will also be paintball or something.

pleasant hill and sabattus are the two main ones i know of that are just disc golf facilities and both have decent disc shops, so sales supplement the round fees. i don't know their finance situation...but pleasant hill was losing money as a nine-hole golf course and is now doing well enough that they haven't sold the land to a developer. (there may be some technical reason why they can't do that but it isn't low value land) sabattus, as well as porcupine ridge, woodland valley and a few others, aren't on land that would be specifically sought out for anything else.

 

[simpletwist]

From a business perspective, don't forget liability insurance for such a business. Also don't forget the cost of clearing a suitable parking lot. Counties have zoning laws and potential inspection requirements.

Think about what a decent ball golf course provides as far as amenities go. Food? Drinks? Restrooms? Showers? Benches? Multiple tees? Signage? A clubhouse?

Another thought to help build your regulars, hosting a multitude of differnt types of tournaments. From Ace Race type of events to PDGA sanctioned tourneys.

And if you're truly serious think about memberships. At the outset membership fees will give you at least a little chunk of change for operating capital.

Something that can truly help get things off the ground are donations. For example, plastic patio chairs. Almost everyone has some. The local pay to play course that I have a membership to has 4 chairs or a 2 seat bench at every tee box. If my math is correct that 136 chairs for the red, white and blue tees.

And then there's advertising. Word of mouth is good. And DGCR certainly helps. But get yourself a website, promotion is important especially in the beginning.

I really believe that a large part of the future of disc golf lies in private courses. But right now making a go of a private course truly is a labor of love. You may find you aren't playing a whole lot because good maintenance. Maintenance and amenities that make the course worth playing on a regular basis is a full time job and more. It may be many years, yes years, before your course turns a profit.

I hope that helps. Good luck with your venture. Set yourself apart and make it worth the trip. Like the movie says, "Build it and they will come."

 

[DavidSauls]

When you weigh the financial success of a private course, you need to consider 3 categories:

(1) Covering the cost of the course itself---the installation and maintenance costs. This is certainly feasible.

(2) Enough profit to justify the owner's time, which is going to be hundreds of hours per year.

(3) Enough profit to pay for the land costs.

If you can get #1, plus either #2 or #3, that's pretty good. If you can get all 3, that's remarkable.

 

[captain jack]

So, you throw in a strip club, and a beer garden, and you got yourself a profitable disc golf course.

 

[Gblambert]

Did you need to get a liquor license? Or is that a non-issue where you are located?

Yes, we're in the process of applying for a liquor license. The fee is expensive, but we think alcohol sales could be big for us. Our property is close to a large, growing city, with a major college campus at its center and no other disc golf courses in the vicinity. Also, the nearest place to buy a beer is 5 miles away, so we're hoping some of our non-disc golf playing neighbors will stop by as well to listen to live music or just hang out in the beer garden.

 

[reposado]

So, you throw in a strip club, and a beer garden, and you got yourself a profitable disc golf course.

Or you might have a profitable beer garden that has a disc golf course out back

 

[blazerico]

The quality of the course and the overall experience factor highly on what I will pay to play. Consider Phantom Falls and Bucksnort, both charge $20 per player with a four player minimum. A single traveler such as myself is about to pay $80 per round to play each!! I know the golf at PF isn't going to be spectacular, but the experience will supposedly make up for it. I could find locals to play with me to differ the cost, but you never know what you're getting when inviting strangers to play with you. Point is - if you build an awesome course, with lots of amenities on land with spectacular views, then you can charge more and people will still show up.

another thing to consider is most of the high level p2p have the owners living on site, so the initial investment is for their home and land, which they have to buy anyway in order to have a place to live and raise a family; therefore, your initial calculation may be way off.

 

[corin_brown]

I love this thread because I love p2p. I fantasize frequently about building the Augusta National of disc golf, somewhere in the Santa Ynez Valley (without all the pesky racism, sexism, bigotry and general snootiness, of course.) But like most fantasies it ignores all the valid points & concerns like the ones raised in all the previous posts. Who's gonna pay more than $10 to play a private course on really expensive private land? Not too many folks. Barely anyone plays the sport or even knows it exists, as it is.

 

[DavidSauls]

another thing to consider is most of the high level p2p have the owners living on site, so the initial investment is for their home and land, which they have to buy anyway in order to have a place to live and raise a family; therefore, your initial calculation may be way off.

True but, in respect to the O.P., he was asking a different question. How much would it take to get a 10% return on investment for someone buying land to build a course, without consideration of other uses or income? The answer is that it's probably impossible. So, nobody's going to invest in land for a disc golf course, with the expectation that disc golf will give a return on that investment.

In addition to the private courses on already-owned land, there are people on this site who bought land with the intent of building a course---but also building a home. The hope is that the disc golf pays for the course or perhaps, if things work out, contributes a little bit to the land cost. And, of course, those owners get, not only a place to live, but the opportunity to live with lots of room around them, and to live on a disc golf course.

 

[InnocentCrook]

^^^ Yeah, I gotta get going on the house as we just outgrew our barndominium 3 hours ago with the arrival of daughter #2.(Mom and baby are doing great.)

Like David said, we were already planning on buying land for a house, but we did end up buying a little more than originally planned because we found a beautiful spot for a great price. We had some help with some close family buying a chunk of it with us to create a little family village so to speak. Plus my bro in law is splitting much of the course costs (equipment, baskets, labor, etc.) which helps immensely.

We'd be building trails and stuff anyway, so anything that we happen to make off the course is just gonna be gravy.

 

[DavidSauls]

^^^ Yeah, I gotta get going on the house as we just outgrew our barndominium 3 hours ago with the arrival of daughter #2.(Mom and baby are doing great.)

......and coursework grounds to a halt....

 

[Lewis]

Or you might have a profitable beer garden that has a disc golf course out back

That's the spirit! And after the third drink, the course is free to play until sunset! :thmbup:

 

[reposado]

True but, in respect to the O.P., he was asking a different question. How much would it take to get a 10% return on investment for someone buying land to build a course, without consideration of other uses or income? The answer is that it's probably impossible. So, nobody's going to invest in land for a disc golf course, with the expectation that disc golf will give a return on that investment.

In addition to the private courses on already-owned land, there are people on this site who bought land with the intent of building a course---but also building a home. The hope is that the disc golf pays for the course or perhaps, if things work out, contributes a little bit to the land cost. And, of course, those owners get, not only a place to live, but the opportunity to live with lots of room around them, and to live on a disc golf course.

i glossed over that 10% bit. yeah that is not likely to happen regardless. if anyoen has a business that will generate 10% profits, please let me know before everyone else finds out....

 

[keith johnson]

Your mom and pop gas stations.........raking in 20-30% for last 3-5 years and counting.

 

[donnyv]

It will take some time to break even and even longer to get profitable.

Even though I'm still building my 24-27 hole course, I have 18 holes playable with at least 2-3 tees each. Not all of those 18 holes are a finished product but most are pretty close and just need a couple trees taken down to open it up a little more for the beginners.

Since it's not "finished", I haven't had a whole lot of people play this summer. To be honest, I've had more families (mom, dad and their teenage kids playing disc for the very first time) out here than disc golfers. Thank God I designed red tees into the course because they'd be screwed if playing the whites or blues

The families have also been some of the most generous in donations. Very common for them to donate $10-$20 EACH PERSON. As far as disc golfers go, $5 and a challenging course seem to be too much for them. Don't take that the wrong way. There have been many good people and discers come through here during the building process and a bunch of them have helped or donated $10-20 each too, but they are few and far between. The ones that get my head scratching are the dudes with the $100+ disc golf bags filled with 20+ discs at $15-30 bucks per disc that scoff at paying to play, or in my course's case, don't even donate a dime (unless they consider their empty beer cans a donated dime with 10 cent return) or a "thank you for having us out to your private course" type of players. Are we really that cheap? I can see how it would add up if you played everyday but that's still pretty cheap for 2-3 hrs of entertainment.

We were blessed and found a home with a barn and 30 acres. Turned the barn into a clubhouse/proshop/equip building/storage I already had over 20 baskets from my old course that I bought one at a time from selling off my old disc golf discs. I didn't make a killing selling them off but was able to buy a basket here and there every year since 2006. Will I ever make a profit? Hopefully, but I knew well before I put up my life's savings on the down payment that this wasn't going to make me rich with money. It's a hobby that I hope to sustain it's self. I'd rather not turn it into a business. I've gone that route years ago in another profession and it totally sucked the life and passion out of it for me. So let's just say that I have a private disc golf course at my house instead of saying I have $XXX,XXX.XX amount of dollars invested in disc golf. I'd also advise against buying land for "disc golf only" if you were not going to live there too. The money is just not there yet to justify building a stand-alone disc golf course.

 

[hanger129]

Digging this thread back up. I'm curious to know people's opinions on this topic now that disc golf has seen a large boom during the pandemic. In today's DG landscape, how likely is it that a truly great course could break even, or be profitable, from entry fees alone?

A friend has the opportunity to build a disc golf course on private land that is owned by an interested party, so land cost is not an issue. He hopes to work with an experienced course designer in the hopes of having a truly great course right from the get-go. The property is within an hour of a major city that has a well-established disc golf scene.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Digging this thread back up. I'm curious to know people's opinions on this topic now that disc golf has seen a large boom during the pandemic. In today's DG landscape, how likely is it that a truly great course could break even, or be profitable, from entry fees alone?

A friend has the opportunity to build a disc golf course on private land that is owned by an interested party, so land cost is not an issue. He hopes to work with an experienced course designer in the hopes of having a truly great course right from the get-go. The property is within an hour of a major city that has a well-established disc golf scene.

This experienced course designer has yet to see an example where a single course installation on any scale could be profitable by itself. In some combination of pro shop, bar, campgrounds, daily leagues, other skill games, alternate seasonal use (like ski hill), dispensary (where legal), it might be possible. The best profitable single course has been Morley Field in San Diego, but that model would be hard to duplicate anywhere else considering the 365 days good weather, nearby population and lack of competition there over the years. A short tiki type course where the broader public market could immediately be successful throwing Frisbees/Super Class discs might have the best chance like the Tiki course at the Blockhouse (VA) or Flying Armadillo (TX).

Any of the course owners who post here would probably agree that owning and running your course is still a matter of loving the game and the players. You might be able to break even on a cash basis but likely not come close to paying yourself a decent income for the work you and volunteers have put in to build it and later maintain it.

 

[DavidSauls]

By "profitable", do we mean covering expenses, or generating enough income to live on?

If the land is already owned, and the owner (or someone) doing the maintenance work, the right course could make a profit. That is, cover expenses and put a little cash in his pocket.

The covid boom helps, but all of the other hurdles mentioned 5 years ago, still apply.