Fee threshold for success of private courses.

[BogeyNoMore]

All the signs point toward continued growth in the future. I'm not sure if this model would work for anyone else, but I wanted to share some of our experience with others in case it could help other potential disc golf course owners trying to make a living in this very competitive business.

Yeah, I'll believe it....


when armadillos fly.

 

[ejvogie]

Yeah, I'll believe it....


when armadillos fly.

Cue Innova's next attempt at a Zone

 

[ray1970]

All kinds of good discussion in here so I'll just toss out my opinions on paying to play.

The vast majority of courses within a fifty mile radius of my house are free. Having limited time in my life to enjoy my hobbies I often just pick something close and go play.

That being said, I'm not cheap or poor and actually prefer to play somewhere that I have to pay when I have time. Free courses are often crowded and a lot of them are in multiuse areas where you not only have to deal with other disc golfers but people using the park for other activities as well. Pay to play courses eliminate having to deal with non disc golfers, the courses are usually less crowded, and generally the people playing the courses take their game a little more serious so there aren't as many course etiquette issues to deal with.

I think $10 is a reasonable price to pay for a round if it's a quality course. If it's an exceptional course I would happily pay double that.

Having a little pro shop onsite should generate more revenue. I know the crowd that I run with will always buy a disc or a mini or a shirt with a course stamp as a souvenir to support the course owners.

 

[Mando]

The vast majority of courses within a fifty mile radius of my house are free. Having limited time in my life to enjoy my hobbies I often just pick something close and go play.

That being said, I'm not cheap or poor and actually prefer to play somewhere that I have to pay when I have time.

From someone who has a private course an hour from the nearest town with any size, this hits the nail on the head.

 

[Central Scrutinizer]

I want to live in a near future when there's a Flip City in every county. It's not implausible!

Believe me, if I had the money and time, I'd be putting in my own one.

 

[Gblambert]

Yeah, I'll believe it....

when armadillos fly.

I hear the same thing about aces. As in, I'll make an ace ... when armadillos fly.
In fact, there was even a poem written about it ...



When Armadillos Fly

One day I will make an ace, if I try really hard
I'll watch some Youtube videos and practice in my yard
I'll finally get that x-step down, till my drives are smooth as glass
And I'll do that snapping towel drill, till my spin is super fast
I'll try to throw like Paul McBeth, I'll try and try and try
Yes, one day I will make an ace, when armadillos fly

One day I will make an ace, if I just put in the reps
From dawn to dusk I'll play till I can't take another step
I'll play in every mini, every bag tag, to compete
Till I can throw a frozen rope at least three hundred feet
I'll work out at the gym till my muscles cry and cry
Yes, one day I will make an ace, when armadillos fly

One day I will make an ace, when I get my head on straight
I'll read about zen disc golf, I hope it's not too late
I'll see a shrink so he can probe the shadows in my mind
He'll wander around my brain and I'm afraid of what he'll find
I'll learn to meditate and do some yoga bye and bye
Yes, one day I will make an ace, when armadillos fly

One day I will make an ace, when I find the perfect course
No more long range bombers, but a short course I'll endorse
I need a course with all par two's, for me to have a shot
I just don't have the distance, with this noodle arm I've got
I'll find that perfect course before I die, die, die
Yes, one day I will make an ace, when armadillos fly

Today I finally made an ace, it was beautiful to see
I rolled it up the roller ramp and past that big blue screen
It dove into the funnel and popped out the other end
Then dropped into the basket, a perfect throw my friend
I was shocked and overjoyed, I won't lie, lie, lie
It happened at the Dillo, where armadillos fly

 

[Mando]

There are many courses that make way more than $20,000 in greens fees alone. Some make $10,000 in single month. Depends on the location, the designer, the quality of design, and maintenance.

How many courses is many, that charge $5-$10 and make $20k +, outside of Maine and an hour from the nearest populated city ?

 

[air show]

Though not a private course I would love to see the books on the municipal courses in Dane County, Madison WI. They charge $8 a day for Token Creek and Capital Springs. I would think it to be a great model for other cities. I only wish we had something like this in KC.

 

[elmexdela]

Though not a private course I would love to see the books on the municipal courses in Dane County, Madison WI. They charge $8 a day for Token Creek and Capital Springs. I would think it to be a great model for other cities. I only wish we had something like this in KC.

despite not being the best dg play the madison courses were very well groomed and upkept

slippery slope tho

madison and kc could get away with it

others couldnt

 

[glassila]

Though not a private course I would love to see the books on the municipal courses in Dane County, Madison WI. They charge $8 a day for Token Creek and Capital Springs. I would think it to be a great model for other cities. I only wish we had something like this in KC.

I've played numerous courses in County and State parks in Michigan that just require you to pay to get into the park. I think it would be a little tricky to determine what percentage of those gate fees are from disc golfers.

 

[The Shide]

I've played numerous courses in County and State parks in Michigan that just require you to pay to get into the park. I think it would be a little tricky to determine what percentage of those gate fees are from disc golfers.

The MetroParks in SE MI charge to enter the parks, then charge to play DG. The courses are pretty well kept. I think there are some other courses over there that do the same thing (gate fee & course fee). Bogey or ru4por would be better sources, though. Of the Metro Parks, I really only play Kensington (my "home away from home course").

 

[BogeyNoMore]

The MetroParks in SE MI charge to enter the parks, then charge to play DG. The courses are pretty well kept. I think there are some other courses over there that do the same thing (gate fee & course fee). Bogey or ru4por would be better sources, though. Of the Metro Parks, I really only play Kensington (my "home away from home course").

Prices below are for single day, non-resident.

Metroparks: Hudson Mills, Kensington, Stony Creek all have attendants collecting DG fees.
Willow charges to get in, but no DG fee (at least no one there to collect it).
Park admission $10/car Residency doesn't matter.
DG $3/person/day ; Toboggan = $5/day (not $3) ...when open
Park entry pass can be used at the other Metro Parks same day.

Washtenaw County Parks: Rolling Hills and Independence Lake
Entry = $10/car for non-resident; DG = $2/person/day (lock box/honor system)
Park entry pass can be used at the other the same day.

Addison Oaks County Park
Park Entry = $12/car non-resident ; no DG fee

Burchfield Park
Park Entry = $5/car non-resident.
Technically, there's a DG fee, but no one to collect it, and I don't recall a lock box. Suppose it's on the honor system when you pay to enter at the toll booth.

Michigan State Parks/Recreation Areas
$10/car for out of state plates ; no DG fee

Shide's right, they're all kept up pretty nicely.

 

[puttlikeablowfly]

As of a couple of years ago, I believe the City of Madison disc golf program brought in $80-90K per year from permits ($5/day or $40/year). That's for two 18-hole courses open roughly May-November, and one 18-hole winter course they put it when they close the others in late fall.

As for Dane County, they have two courses: 27-holes for Vallarta-Ast (Token Creek) and 18 at Capital Springs. I believe they budget for about $100K in permit fees annually, charging $8/day and $50/year.

 

[elmexdela]

what courses are the high profit courses that people keep referring to

bump

anyone have an answer

 

[johnrhouck]

bump

anyone have an answer

Puttlikeablowfly just gave good numbers from Madison, and I think the same is true in Milwaukee, but I haven't seen those numbers in a while. I've had a couple property owners confidentially reveal their numbers to me -- sorry I can't give their names.

I've heard that Blue Ribbon Pines has tons of players, and there are others we can speculate about. The threshold we were discussing recently ($20,000) is not at all a high one. For example, Selah Ranch charges $25/day. If they had players 40 weeks a year, they'd only need to bring in $500 a weekend, which is 20 people. Clearly they do a lot better than that.

So, while I can't give you proof today, I am convinced that there are a good number of courses that bring in much more than $20K a year from greens fees.

 

[elmexdela]

Puttlikeablowfly just gave good numbers from Madison, and I think the same is true in Milwaukee, but I haven't seen those numbers in a while. I've had a couple property owners confidentially reveal their numbers to me -- sorry I can't give their names.

I've heard that Blue Ribbon Pines has tons of players, and there are others we can speculate about. The threshold we were discussing recently ($20,000) is not at all a high one. For example, Selah Ranch charges $25/day. If they had players 40 weeks a year, they'd only need to bring in $500 a weekend, which is 20 people. Clearly they do a lot better than that.

So, while I can't give you proof today, I am convinced that there are a good number of courses that bring in much more than $20K a year from greens fees.

is madison model/city model different from a privately owned land/operation

or we just talkin fees in general

 

[elmexdela]

Puttlikeablowfly just gave good numbers from Madison, and I think the same is true in Milwaukee, but I haven't seen those numbers in a while. I've had a couple property owners confidentially reveal their numbers to me -- sorry I can't give their names.

I've heard that Blue Ribbon Pines has tons of players, and there are others we can speculate about. The threshold we were discussing recently ($20,000) is not at all a high one. For example, Selah Ranch charges $25/day. If they had players 40 weeks a year, they'd only need to bring in $500 a weekend, which is 20 people. Clearly they do a lot better than that.

So, while I can't give you proof today, I am convinced that there are a good number of courses that bring in much more than $20K a year from greens fees.

also i dont have exact numbers either but brp has hired staff to help operate/maintain it which to me is an indicator of their success

 

[nothinbuttree]

I'm talking about a standalone operation with 18 short holes, our equivalent of miniature golf courses with at most food vending machines. I believe one key to success is a setup that also attracts non-disc golfers who can successfully throw Frisbees right away, with potentially a few ace runs, in the same way grandma or a 7-yr old can pick up a golf putter and play miniature golf on vacation having never done so before.

This sounds like Winton Woods in Cincy, except the vending. That is a pay to play park (though there is never a fee station on the particular road to the course, but I still think many do pay or have annual passes to the park system. That place has been packed every time I have been (have kids who love the course--they can actually birdie a few holes here and there). Its great putter/mid practice too for more seasoned players.

I am sure a fee station there, dedicated just to the course, would not keep too many away. What makes it tick? Well, it's in the middle of a larger metro area with a really good disc golf scene. That helps for sure. Course has concrete around the baskets on all the greens, which I hate, but most folks don't seem to mind. There are many other free choices in the area, but this is one of the few courses that is truly beginner-friendly. I think that is key--how many of the masses does a course appeal to? Most courses are designed for intermediate to advanced players in mind. The short tees for rec players seem to usually be an afterthought. Problem is--there are far more sub 900 players than 900+ players out there. My hunch would be the median player rating (if we all had one) would be in the low 800s. Maybe even lower. Design a course for that player, and my guess is it would do OK. Especially if there aren't many like that around.

 

[Cgkdisc]

This sounds like Winton Woods in Cincy, except the vending. That is a pay to play park (though there is never a fee station on the particular road to the course, but I still think many do pay or have annual passes to the park system. That place has been packed every time I have been (have kids who love the course--they can actually birdie a few holes here and there). Its great putter/mid practice too for more seasoned players.

I am sure a fee station there, dedicated just to the course, would not keep too many away. What makes it tick? Well, it's in the middle of a larger metro area with a really good disc golf scene. That helps for sure. Course has concrete around the baskets on all the greens, which I hate, but most folks don't seem to mind. There are many other free choices in the area, but this is one of the few courses that is truly beginner-friendly. I think that is key--how many of the masses does a course appeal to? Most courses are designed for intermediate to advanced players in mind. The short tees for rec players seem to usually be an afterthought. Problem is--there are far more sub 900 players than 900+ players out there. My hunch would be the median player rating (if we all had one) would be in the low 800s. Maybe even lower. Design a course for that player, and my guess is it would do OK. Especially if there aren't many like that around.

Blendon Woods in Columbus was another example I had in mind.

 

[nothinbuttree]

Blendon Woods in Columbus was another example I had in mind.

Haven't played that one yet--does that have concrete around the baskets? If not, I am so there--I mean I am so taking my kids there...