Foot Faults at World by Stokely

[Kodachrome]

The third camp which says "that's a bull**** call" because he was not faulting is also following the rules. :/

 

[joshmo65]

Can someone with knowledge of the course this occurred on indicate the basket location on a still shot of one of the throws which resulted in an infraction?

This is a little hard to do since it is a blind shot, but I think it is pretty close to correct. I don't see how they can make the 2nd call.

 

[DG_player]

Irrespective of the validity of the calls on Stokely, it's problematic for DG that the enforcement of rules is mostly dependent on how attentive and strict a particular card is.

If you happen to be on a lax card, and another player is on a strict card, you're essentially playing the same tournament under a different set of rules. Surely the PDGA could spare a few officials to officiate for at the least the top few cards in such high profile tournaments.

As an aside, I followed the top card at Moraine on Saturday, and there were numerous 30 seconds violations, none of which were ever called. I'm glad they weren't, because I personally think it's a dumb rule, but the rule is in fact on the books. Is it fair that one card can essentially ignore a rule, while someone on another card with stricter players would have to follow the rule?

 

[JedV]

Irrespective of the validity of the calls on Stokely, it's problematic for DG that the enforcement of rules is mostly dependent on how attentive and strict a particular card is.

If you happen to be on a lax card, and another player is on a strict card, you're essentially playing the same tournament under a different set of rules. Surely the PDGA could spare a few officials to officiate for at the least the top few cards in such high profile tournaments.

As an aside, I followed the top card at Moraine on Saturday, and there were numerous 30 seconds violations, none of which were ever called. I'm glad they weren't, because I personally think it's a dumb rule, but the rule is in fact on the books. Is it fair that one card can essentially ignore a rule, while someone on another card with stricter players would have to follow the rule?

Excellent points.

Unfortunately I don't think that this will ever change.

 

[Pbmercil]

Irrespective of the validity of the calls on Stokely, it's problematic for DG that the enforcement of rules is mostly dependent on how attentive and strict a particular card is.

If you happen to be on a lax card, and another player is on a strict card, you're essentially playing the same tournament under a different set of rules. Surely the PDGA could spare a few officials to officiate for at the least the top few cards in such high profile tournaments.

As an aside, I followed the top card at Moraine on Saturday, and there were numerous 30 seconds violations, none of which were ever called. I'm glad they weren't, because I personally think it's a dumb rule, but the rule is in fact on the books. Is it fair that one card can essentially ignore a rule, while someone on another card with stricter players would have to follow the rule?

The PDGA (or the TD's themselves) doesn't have the resources to officiate play like that. Its like high school tennis. One or two officials keeping an eye on many many matches at the same time, with the expectation that the players can handle themselves.

 

[1978]

Hasn't the point been made liek 100 times that the call was because he was too far behind his disc. Why do people keep arguing the line of play rule? He was too far behind his disc at least 2 times, right?

 

[1978]

Irrespective of the validity of the calls on Stokely, it's problematic for DG that the enforcement of rules is mostly dependent on how attentive and strict a particular card is.

If you happen to be on a lax card, and another player is on a strict card, you're essentially playing the same tournament under a different set of rules. Surely the PDGA could spare a few officials to officiate for at the least the top few cards in such high profile tournaments.

As an aside, I followed the top card at Moraine on Saturday, and there were numerous 30 seconds violations, none of which were ever called. I'm glad they weren't, because I personally think it's a dumb rule, but the rule is in fact on the books. Is it fair that one card can essentially ignore a rule, while someone on another card with stricter players would have to follow the rule?

Its more problematic that most players don't know the rules period...like the people that tried to stroke me. I was in a bush, putted, disc hit basket and rolled all the way down and hit my bag before I could move it. Its clearly not a penalty but they all thought it was, so I did provisional and obviously won my argument that the only way it is a stroke is if you intentionally hit it, or someone requests that you move your equipment, you dont, then they hit it. Whatever, the point is a lot of players, including those commenting dont know basic rules then they are required to use them in a tournament...which is why PROVISIONAL rule is so great... takes away the rule ignorance of your average player.

 

[BionicRib]

Its more problematic that most players don't know the rules period.

Ding ding ding

 

[Mulligan]

I'm selling these new meticulously designed prototype minis on a first come, first serve basis.
Will trade for a Zone Driven CE Roc.
Patent pending. PPFF please.

 

[pmatt1969]

Not even Close? Hardly. Was that one a foot fault? Possibly, but youd have to get out a ruler. You're allowed to be 11 inches back, and at most that was 13-14", not the "2 and a half feet" that Brian Graham and Climo claim. In the game of inches you have to give benefit of the doubt to the thrower, because video evidence is inadmissable, and if they were claiming he was over 2 feet away on the second and first throws their eyesight is obviously too bad to be allowed to make foot fault calls on anyone.

Totally agree. Watched the videos and he got jobbed on these calls. How do you make that call from 20 or 30 feet behind him. If you think a guy may be foot faulting, you better be up close to get a good look at it and be sure. No way to mark the 11.81 inches he has. Total bull****.

 

[bballr4567]

Totally agree. Watched the videos and he got jobbed on these calls. How do you make that call from 20 or 30 feet behind him. If you think a guy may be foot faulting, you better be up close to get a good look at it and be sure. No way to mark the 11.81 inches he has. Total bull****.

I mean, he was warned earlier in the round.

I agree the second one is iffy but the first foot fault is a great deal behind his mini. The guy is tall (like me) and has large feet but its not even close. How anyone can argue THAT call is what is impressive to me.

 

[Mulligan]

I agree the second one is iffy but the first foot fault is a great deal behind his mini. The guy is tall (like me) and has large feet but its not even close. How anyone can argue THAT call is what is impressive to me.

I disagree. The second step he takes after the plant with the same foot on the first throw lands clearly further from the mini than the plant, but still only a few inches outside of a foot away. Regardless, you're not going to get a clean call on that from greater than 10ft away and behind.

When you actually do measure it out and stand at the edge of 30cm, it looks like a mile in person, to me.
(Thankfully, I have a solution for that in my post above!)

 

[lyleoross]

What is amazing about this is the total number of foot faults I see that go uncalled. What that means is that people were looking for it here for some reason. If the rule is going to be called, then it should be called equally. And I've seen video of everyone on that card faulting over the years with no call. BTW - ten years ago there was a hot discussion on this very topic that included some of the leadership of the PDGA. The consensus that I got out of those discussions was that foot faults in open field run ups were a grey area. Some allowance was given to make the game more exciting. Where it really mattered was in situations where the player gained a huge advantage in tight situations. Personally, I think the call was BS, again because of the open field, and wonder what was at the base of it?

There is an easy solution, change the definition of a foot fault.

 

[lyleoross]

I'm selling these new meticulously designed prototype minis on a first come, first serve basis.
Will trade for a Zone Driven CE Roc.
Patent pending. PPFF please.

Up until about eight years ago, there was a product available. Mini with a towel or similar behind it, same principle. I never saw one used.

 

[bballr4567]

I disagree. The second step he takes after the plant with the same foot on the first throw lands clearly further from the mini than the plant, but still only a few inches outside of a foot away. Regardless, you're not going to get a clean call on that from greater than 10ft away and behind.

When you actually do measure it out and stand at the edge of 30cm, it looks like a mile in person, to me.
(Thankfully, I have a solution for that in my post above!)

Its a 12" ruler basically, not a mile.

If he has already been warned on it once, why even take the chance?? Why doesn't he do a measured run up? Why doesn't he walk his steps out? Why is it that the violation callers are in question here? Why cant the thrower be at fault for even making a murky call even murkier?


And yes, this weekend I did warn a player on my first card to watch his footing on open throws. He was missing his mini by a good deal. I noticed it and watched his next throw really closely. He landed about two feet behind his mini and I warned him. Next open throw he hit his spot but it robbed him of about 30 feet of distance. He didn't foot fault again after the warning.

 

[lyleoross]

I was reading up, the answer that has been most discussed over the years is the same one here, stand and deliver. It makes the point moot, but again, makes open field drives less exciting in the view of some. The truth is that the big guns can still drive 400 feet from a stand. On the other hand , big run ups in open fields only occur because you have a hole that is in excess of 800 feet with no features that require a more thoughtful throw. I might argue that such holes are bad holes.

 

[Mulligan]

If he has already been warned on it once, why even take the chance?? Why doesn't he do a measured run up? Why doesn't he walk his steps out? Why is it that the violation callers are in question here? Why cant the thrower be at fault for even making a murky call even murkier?

Cause the fundamental issue is he is out numbered by his own competition who get to play dual roles as referees, and benefit from their own erroneous (and possibly manipulative) calls.

Some (myself included) don't believe that the first warranted a fault at all.
If nothing else, though, there seems to be a general consensus that the second foot fault is BS, so even when he executes within the rules they are still able to get one over on him.

 

[bballr4567]

Cause the fundamental issue is he is out numbered by his own competition who get to play dual roles as referees, and benefit from their own erroneous (and possibly manipulative) calls.

Some (myself included) don't believe that the first warranted a fault at all.
If nothing else, though, there seems to be a general consensus that the second foot fault is BS, so even when he executes within the rules they are still able to get one over on him.

Are we even watching the same video? You HONESTLY think that he is within 30cm of his mini on the first throw? Not close to 30cm but within 30 cm of his mini. If he is close to 30cm, its still a foot fault. Again, he was warned AND called earlier in the round. Why doesn't he take the time to make sure he isn't foot faulting? If you are playing so good as to make the final 9 why wouldn't you do everything in your power to have a penalty called on you.


And yes, there is a problem with players being referees but how does ball golf get around it on the amateur tour? They don't have officials on every card. How do the players do it then? Is there this conspiracy theory that a certain card is going to team up against another player?

Like I said, if he was warned of it before and was still careless then he deserved to be called on it. Scott didn't call it on any of his other card mates and if the opportunity was there Im sure that he would have.

 

[Pbmercil]

I thought it was pretty clear he was way off in the new video....

 

[Mulligan]

Are we even watching the same video? You HONESTLY think that he is within 30cm of his mini on the first throw? Not close to 30cm but within 30 cm of his mini. If he is close to 30cm, its still a foot fault. Again, he was warned AND called earlier in the round. Why doesn't he take the time to make sure he isn't foot faulting? If you are playing so good as to make the final 9 why wouldn't you do everything in your power to have a penalty called on you.

And yes, there is a problem with players being referees but how does ball golf get around it on the amateur tour? They don't have officials on every card. How do the players do it then? Is there this conspiracy theory that a certain card is going to team up against another player?

Like I said, if he was warned of it before and was still careless then he deserved to be called on it. Scott didn't call it on any of his other card mates and if the opportunity was there Im sure that he would have.

Thank you for making my point so decisively.
Without a ruler in hand, an unbiased referee, and some sort of marking device to make it clear on the ground, every single call is completely subjective.

What if Scott's standard plant puts him regularly in that last 5 cm of distance?
Thats still completely within the rules, so why should he have to adjust his game to protect himself against zealous competitive over-calling from others on the card?
If he is at 29cm or 31cm, how are you going to call that from 10ft back accurately?
I don't know if he was within 30cm or outside, even with video evidence, thats the entire point.

I've actually taken the time to measure it out and see what it looks like and its very difficult to tell. 30cm looked further away than I expected, I can tell you that much.

On your other points, there is no real comparison between amateur ball golf and the professional world championships of DG, for too many reasons to bother to iterate here.

And on your final point about him deserving it, you conveniently fail to mention or explain how, in your entire rant, that second throw they also called him on that was much more clearly in the green was justified.
Scott has shown he has a lot more class than to just retaliate needlessly, too, so kudos to him.