for those dedicated to rocs or buzzzes

[Muddyboots]

From what I have seen and thrown, all the First Run ESP Wasps, now OOP, were less stable than expected. The later runs had more flex and more stability. I stick with the Z plastic myself, flatter the better. One of the things I like about watching Roc throwers is how they utilize the glide. My Wasps are like that for me. Not as fast as a Buzzz, but close, with more stability and a really pretty glide.
KP

 

[masterbeato]

i cannot vote, i throw rocs and only rocs, but if i threw a buzzz i would need something else.

What's the difference, really, between carrying multiple rocs or a couple mids in different molds? The feel of the disc mean that much? Your most overstable roc and your will fly about like a wasp and a buzz.

I carry comets and buzzes. A broken in comet will turn on less power than just about any other disc, with possible exception of a thrashed disc. Buzz just goes straight. I have a crystal that I can hyzer and will work for any of my midrange shots.

I don't have enough power to worry about a more overstable midrange. If the wind is too hard, then I'm losing distance and therefore upgrade to a driver, if the ceiling is low so I can't do a big hyzer, then I have to upgrade to a driver, etc.

It's so personal preference and skill level though. Dan can throw a Roc 375' dead straight. If I could do that, then maybe my midrange selection changes, but I can't, so, by default, it has to be difference. I have much more understable stuff because I don't have the power to get something overstable flat for very long.

throwing multiple rocs vs. multiple molds in its place is all about mastery. have one mold thats beat in different wears has a higher mastery level.

it is the same disc just flys differently and it takes longer to get to know multiple discs than just one. throw the same disc for many many years no matter how different it flys you will know that disc inside and out.

 

[dgdave]

Dedicated to the buzzz, yes

dedicated to the roc, no

 

[discspeed]

I think its all about knowing your plastic. Obviously if you clutter your bag with too many molds then its going to be hard to know all of those discs, but I don't think throwing a single mold for your mid gives any sort of tangible advantage over two or three (especially if they share a lot of similar flight characteristics and you understand the differences). I honestly have seen no evidence of this being the case in my years of experience and playing with many great players. The idea appeals to many, but is no way the single "right" way.

 

[sunspot]

I see both points of view:

1)having complete mastery over one mold in all stages

2) having two molds that cover different lines with greater ease

There are strengths and weaknesses to each position. The biggest strength for number one is knowing exactly what that mold is going to do on each line at any given time. The disadvantage is that it may not be as good as other molds on said line. Of course, that goes back with the archer vs. arrow analogy.

1) having complete mastery over one mold in all stages

Let's use the roc (rancho) as an example:

Roc Positives:
It's a great stable to mild-overstable disc when new; It can fight wind; It has good glide; It is a good disc to "push" your distances with; You can power down on it without becoming flippy; when beat you can throw straight at the basket with little to no fade.

Roc Negatives: The biggest complaint that I have from a subjective perspective is that it takes a higher line to achieve greater distances, and in wooded areas where tight lines are key, the roc can potentially be detrimental; It does take longer to beat into those desired anhyzer lines .

2) having two molds (or more) that cover different lines with greater ease

Two mold (depending on what you have) positives:
Essentially the same as the roc positives with the exception that you can cover all shots at once with more molds

Two mold negatives: jack of all trades, master of none; possibility that technique can hurt due to too much relying on many molds to cover your shots instead of relying on skill.

I'm sure there could be more said about each, but I think that sticking to one mold is probably better in the long run even if doesn't seem like it. Having to force an angle that isn't natural for that disc teaches you more about how to throw that angle that to rely on a disc that already does it for you.

 

[discspeed]

I'm sure there could be more said about each, but I think that sticking to one mold is probably better in the long run even if doesn't seem like it. Having to force an angle that isn't natural for that disc teaches you more about how to throw that angle that to rely on a disc that already does it for you.

I agree with this when you are learning, but forcing an angle that isn't natural is never going to be as high percentage as a disc that has a more natural characteristic for that flight and it is a game of percentages. This is why very few top competitors limit themselves in this fashion. Not too mention that the Roc is one of the only discs that you can realistically do this with and imo it has several weaknesses. Its certainly not for everyone, and you don't have to throw the Roc to learn the game or be an excellent golfer. This would be like a carpenter who turns his back on tools that save time and effort because he wants to be an expert with a single tool. There is always a happy medium and things can always be taken too far. In my opinion asserting that one mid mold can do what multiple mid molds can do is taking it too far. You have to make up for it somewhere else, like with more fwy drivers, etc. Once again, there is no single right way for everyone. Know your discs and be confident in them.

 

[spitfire]

Is all this debate really worth it? I mean in the end we should just throw what we know and like and that should be enough. I see now reason why a Buzzz thrower needs to defend themselves to a roc thrower or a Roc thrower needs to defend against a Buzzz thrower. Doesn't make sense to me.

 

[sunspot]

... forcing an angle that isn't natural is never going to be as high percentage as a disc that has a more natural characteristic for that flight and it is a game of percentages.

We force angles all the time to achieve certain characteristics/percentages.

For example, taking an understable disc like the Valk and throw it hyzer you're taking an unnatural angle for the disc and creating an new shot- the hyzer flip.

If I threw that same Valk straight the way it was intended then it's going to turnover and not come back.

I remember hearing Feldberg talk about Climo and how Climos hyzers were going further than his. Feldberg asked Climo how he was able to do so and it came down to disc selection, Feldberg was using a firebird and Climo was using a TL. The firebird was doing what it was suppose to do and coming to the ground faster while the TL was fighting it a little more and achieving greater distance. Forcing that angle on a TL paid off more-so then relying on the firebirds lss. Climo was taking a disc that is not characteristically an overstable disc to achieve a higher percentage on his shot.

 

[sunspot]

Is all this debate really worth it? I mean in the end we should just throw what we know and like and that should be enough. I see now reason why a Buzzz thrower needs to defend themselves to a roc thrower or a Roc thrower needs to defend against a Buzzz thrower. Doesn't make sense to me.

I've been thinking about going to a Buzz.

 

[discspeed]

Is all this debate really worth it? I mean in the end we should just throw what we know and like and that should be enough. I see now reason why a Buzzz thrower needs to defend themselves to a roc thrower or a Roc thrower needs to defend against a Buzzz thrower. Doesn't make sense to me.

We're just having fun! :lol:

 

[spitfire]

Is all this debate really worth it? I mean in the end we should just throw what we know and like and that should be enough. I see now reason why a Buzzz thrower needs to defend themselves to a roc thrower or a Roc thrower needs to defend against a Buzzz thrower. Doesn't make sense to me.

We're just having fun! :lol:

haha, yeah I know :lol:
I was just saying.

 

[discspeed]

I remember hearing Feldberg talk about Climo and how Climos hyzers were going further than his. Feldberg asked Climo how he was able to do so and it came down to disc selection, Feldberg was using a firebird and Climo was using a TL. The firebird was doing what it was suppose to do and coming to the ground faster while the TL was fighting it a little more and achieving greater distance. Forcing that angle on a TL paid off more-so then relying on the firebirds lss. Climo was taking a disc that is not characteristically an overstable disc to achieve a higher percentage on his shot.

I've read that article, and while it certainly illustrates a point, its also a bit misleading. First of all, he was talking about CE TLs that were still pretty overstable. Kenny was not using a beat flippy disc. Second of all, it was a long time ago when other choices were not so vast. And third, I play with Climo and he doesn't throw TLs on hyzers any more. There is a time and a place for a long hyzer that comes up slowly. I relish the times where I need this shot and do it with a beat Stalker. Its not a common practice that you just pull out on your basic hyzer hole though. Kenny always goes for the higher percentage shot when money's on the line, unless he's got a big lead or is just having one of those super human days where he believes he can do anything. For the most part he is a big advocate of "letting the disc do the work" and has chastised me on occasion for trying too hard to make something work unnaturally.

 

[sunspot]

I'm not taking anything serious. It's hard to show tone and demeanor over the computer unless your.......... :roll: :wink: :? 8) :lol: :mrgreen: :lol: :x :lol:........... the place up all the time.

If I were to rock a Buzz I would have a Z and a Pro D.

Here's a quick prop to the Buzz. I was throwing a D Buzz about a year or so ago at a heavily wooded course. I got to hole 14 which is about 280-300, semi-tight gap. There were some guys standing there ahead of me and I came up to the hole. We made small talk, and they told me to go ahead. I parked it. I was amped afterwords. I have since been back and played that course and used a roc (lost that buzz in water) and needlessly to say, I didn't get the same shot. The roc isn't a "laser-beam" type of midrange. Granted, one can get similar success, but I think the Buzz is better suited for that role.

 

[sunspot]

I've read that article, and while it certainly illustrates a point, its also a bit misleading. First of all, he was talking about CE TLs that were still pretty overstable. Kenny was not using a beat flippy disc. Second of all, it was a long time ago when other choices were not so vast. And third, I play with Climo and he doesn't throw TLs on hyzers any more. There is a time and a place for a long hyzer that comes up slowly. I relish the times where I need this shot and do it with a beat Stalker. Its not a common practice that you just pull out on your basic hyzer hole though. Kenny always goes for the higher percentage shot when money's on the line, unless he's got a big lead or is just having one of those super human days where he believes he can do anything. For the most part he is a big advocate of "letting the disc do the work" and has chastised me on occasion for trying too hard to make something work unnaturally.

It is a percentages game. I agree. I think we are looking at two sides of the same coin. If I throw a hyzer flip (unnatural angle) to achieve a higher percentage then that's the shot I will take, and vice-verse.

 

[discspeed]

Here's a great Buzzz recipe http://recipes.howstuffworks.com/buzzz-recipe.htm

 

[discspeed]

Here's proof that the Buzzz is better than the Roc, however its been mysteriously removed...I smell conspiracy! :lol: http://www.buzzz.com

 

[Frank Delicious]

I think its all about knowing your plastic. Obviously if you clutter your bag with too many molds then its going to be hard to know all of those discs, but I don't think throwing a single mold for your mid gives any sort of tangible advantage over two or three (especially if they share a lot of similar flight characteristics and you understand the differences). I honestly have seen no evidence of this being the case in my years of experience and playing with many great players. The idea appeals to many, but is no way the single "right" way.

I haven't read past this post yet but this really stands out as a good point. You can throw anything you want and as many molds as you want as long as you know what the disc is going to do. Minimalism is for us lazy guys who don't want to learn 14 molds and would rather just learn a handful.

 

[discspeed]

I think its all about knowing your plastic. Obviously if you clutter your bag with too many molds then its going to be hard to know all of those discs, but I don't think throwing a single mold for your mid gives any sort of tangible advantage over two or three (especially if they share a lot of similar flight characteristics and you understand the differences). I honestly have seen no evidence of this being the case in my years of experience and playing with many great players. The idea appeals to many, but is no way the single "right" way.

I haven't read past this post yet but this really stands out as a good point. You can throw anything you want and as many molds as you want as long as you know what the disc is going to do. Minimalism is for us lazy guys who don't want to learn 14 molds and would rather just learn a handful.

I like minimalism too. I just think it gets a little like religion if taken to the extreme. Like religion I take the parts that jive with my experience and leave the rest. :lol:

 

[Frank Delicious]

yeah I do know what you mean. I definitely went through a phase when I first joined this site where I definitely hurt myself by trying to go too far with minimalism. Now I stick to minimalism mostly because I have a billion backups of the few discs I throw and I'm too lazy and don't have enough free time anymore to really learn a new disc unless I become really interested it.

 

[masterbeato]

it is one important thing to have multiple discs that are good at certain lines but it is even more of an important thing to be good enough for it to not even matter what you throw because you can throw anything on said lines.

really good players throw rocs, really good players throw buzzz's drones' and other stuff, but they need to be separated from most of us, since they can throw anything that they want and have it still fly the way they want to. it is different to say "i can throw that line with that disc" but it is totally different when Barry Schultz says "i can throw that line with this disc right now".

when you are really good it doesnt matter what you throw, but going through a learning curve, it does matter what you throw.