Forehand and sore side

[sidewinder22]

It's not related to scapular loading?

It may help in loading, but you have to unload/extend or you are just throwing with a tiny te-rex arm. Keeping the elbow below the shoulder is often "good scap loading", where elbow above the shoulder is the dreaded "inverted W".

I like to think about it terms of bench pressing. Elbow in/close grip = no power. Wider grip = more power.

 

[Dan Ensor]

It may help in loading, but you have to unload/extend or you are just throwing with a tiny te-rex arm. Keeping the elbow below the shoulder is often "good scap loading", where elbow above the shoulder is the dreaded "inverted W".

I read an article by a guy (O'Leary) that had said that a high "M" or "inverted W" lead to injuries, but had subsequently found that the height only caused injuries when it lead to improper timing.

I think this might be an updated version of that article:

Why The Inverted W Is Bad

Like the Inverted V and the Inverted L, the Inverted W is not (that) bad in and of itself.

The Inverted W doesn't directly lead to injuries.

Instead, the problem with the Inverted W is that it can create a timing problem; the PAS forearm will not be in the proper position at the moment the GS foot lands and the shoulders start to rotate. That will tend to increase the distance, and thus the force, with which the PAS upper arm externally rotates and increase the stress on both the elbow and the shoulder.

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/PitchingMechanics101/Essays/DeathToTheInvertedW.html

 

[fasteddy8170]

I like to see the thread thriving despite me not being on here for a few days.

I haven't had the time to go out and throw in the field the past few days. But I've been meaning to shoot this video and got the time tonight. I'm trying to go through the one-step process as simply as possible. I think one of the big problems I have--and I say this in the video--is that I don't feel braced by performing the Shawn Clement "Wipe the Window" drill while going through a disc golf swing.

Instead, I feel more "braced" when I am up on the front hip and pushing it toward the sky like the Feldberg video. Of course, that makes the front leg very straight. And it also drives my left shoulder into the sky, screwing up all the angles. So I guess my idea of "braced" is wrong.

Video

 

[sidewinder22]

Your braced position/forward looks somewhat correct on the front side, but your rear heel is on the ground(weight still back). Heel must move up and toward the target, driving from your instep.

 

[sandelius]

... I'm going to tell you the same thing I'd tell someone who is learning backhand. Slow down! Slower discs to start out with, even putters/mid-ranges. If you're so hell-bent on learning forehand, I'd take the time to piddle with some putters forehand before you tried mid-ranges.

^ This.

I have played DG almost ten years now and I'm pretty good with backhand throw. This summer I decided to start practicing forehand throw. My problem is that I thought I'd know how to throw forehand because I've been playing so many years. So I should know how to teach myself good FH in no time

I tried to throw too fast discs. Instead of really learning to flick my wrist I kind of threw my arm. That's how it felt.

Two days ago I was practicing putting. After doing some putts I tried to flick my P2 which I have hated for forehand (up until this day). I held the disc in hard anhyzer position with my hand so that I had to really over exaggerate the motion of turning the palm up and keeping it up when I flick the disc. And that was it, the "aha" moment for me! The putter flew really nice and as far as midrange discs with my previous technique.

 

[sidewinder22]

In your BH you keep shifting your hips forward without the heel(weight) and driving the torque from the instep. The basics of walking forward, heel is driven from ball of foot, moves your hip/weight forward.






Heel up, heel up:

 

[fasteddy8170]

I had a chance to throw this evening. Unfortunately I forgot the thingy that allows my phone to be attached to the tripod. So I didn't get to film anything.

However, the forehand is getting better. Most importantly, no pain anywhere. I'm doing a slow one-step, concentrating on landing on the front of foot and keeping the front leg solid. I'm not throwing very far--maybe 230ft. But the throws are somewhat accurate. I'm finding that I'm underestimating how low I have to get on my left side to get the disc to come out flat. When I don't, I end up throwing an anhyzer off to the right (I'm left-handed remember)--I can feel myself coming over the top instead of coming from under. I do have some flutter in the throws but I think I'll be able to fix that over time. However, right now, I'm pleased with the direction the throw is going--it's light years ahead from this time last week.

Sidewinder22, I watched those videos. Maybe this is something I can video tomorrow in my apartment but I'm wondering about the actual "pushing" with the back foot. In the top video, the guy says there is actual pushing with the back foot. However, in the "Secret In The Dirt", he never actual uses the word "push". In fact, in all Shawn Clement's stuff, I don't think I've ever heard him talk about pushing with the toes of the back foot. I know in your Crush The Can video you push. But in the standstill BH video, if you're pushing very hard, it's very subtle. Because I will be honest: I haven't be doing any pushing necessarily with the back foot. It's been just a momentum thing in the run-up. And from a standstill, it's been just the turning of the hips that bring the backfoot forward. Hey, I've been doing so many things wrong, it wouldn't surprise me if I messed this up too.

I also have a question about my arm and the turning of my chest. But that can wait until I can do some video.

 

[sidewinder22]

They are all the same thing, the move. Some describe a little different and feel it a little different. It's torque/leverage/push/pivot in the right direction, the rear foot holds it's torque/pushes your weight until it everts/pivots and releases and goes "from behind" the front leg so it is still countering the arm action. Mike Maves talks about winding up the torque in the backswing and INCREASING the torque(push) on the downswing. Shawn Clement in the best downswing weightshift talks about have a hockey skate on the rear foot(heel pushed up/forward so you shift/push from behind you). One leg and feet together drills all your weight is already forward/no need to push, so your width of stance can also vary the push. The faster you move/push forward the wider your stance.

Paul is not dragging his foot but has a very wide stance, it pivoted/everted, as he pushed all his weight forward of his toes which were last to leave the earth. He can't "push" his heel(ankle/knee/hip/body/weight/center)any further ahead of the toes than they already are(there's no weight left to drag from the earth) and remain upright in dynamic balance leg is perfectly countering arm(Hershyzer Wall Drill).

 

[fasteddy8170]

Threw forehand this evening. Front leg is still moving forward too much. Gonna have to work on that.

The issue, though, that I have right at this second is my pointer and middle fingers are sore from throwing forehand. They're sore right where they connect to my palm. Is this a sign I'm gripping the disc too hard? I'm using the grip where I place my middle finger against the rim then lay the pointer finger on top of it.

Big issue tonight was one throw would be turned over and become a roller. The next would be high in the sky and hyzer out at like 200ft. Couldn't find the happy spot between them.

 

[sidewinder22]

Muscle sore, joint sore, or skin friction sore?

 

[fasteddy8170]

Hmmmm. Good question. Definitely not skin friction sore. I'd say joint sore. Don't get me wrong: My fingers are working fine. But when I open and close my fist those two fingers don't like it very much. However, when I type they're fine. Yes, it would be the joints where the fingers connect to the palm.

 

[fasteddy8170]

While I'm at it, being that we're talking about my sore fingers, I was watching the video of Ricky Wysocki doing that sidearm instruction course on YouTube. It looks like he puts his middle finger pad right where the side and plate meet. However, I always thought the idea was to put the middle finger pad on the side only--like getting the finger as flat against that tiny side as possible.

 

[sidewinder22]

Not sure what would cause joint soreness, but likely grip pressure related. My fingers are fairly relaxed and the thumb squeezes. As for where the middle pad goes, I think it varies by person, mine is probably 50/50 or close to 45 degree into the rim/flight plate. I definitely feel the pressure at release from the inside of the rim and have a nice callus slightly off center of the pad, sometimes there's so much pressure on big rips the fingernail starts to bleed.

 

[fasteddy8170]

I'll try the different grip this evening and see if the fingers feel any better.

 

[fasteddy8170]

The 45 degree angle into the rim/flight plate definitely feels a lot better for my fingers, although the area right below my pointer and middle finger is swollen a little bit. But the pain isn't as much as a couple days ago. I think in an effort to try to put my middle finger flat on sidewall of the disc, I think I was really twisting a ligament or tendon in down at the base of my middle finger. And it didn't help that I was trying to put a death grip on the disc.

I did some video but it's pretty self-explanatory what I'm doing wrong with my sidearm. First and foremost, the disc isn't coming out flat and straight. I'm way too swoopy coming into the area where the disc is released. One time the disc is anhyzered, the next it's hyzered. Back and forth, back and forth. Then, once in a while I hit it just right and it flies great. It's like I'm trying to throw it level, but the leading edge is up. Plus So I also get all this flutter.

So I need to forget about the footwork a bit and just work on getting a nice flat release. It'll help when my fingers are feeling a bit better. I also think I've had my ring and pinky fingers in the wrong place on the outside of the disc, and that was allowing the disc to have some weird angles on release, too.

 

[ThrowBot]

Stretching helps!

Regardless of form, a good stretching routine will help to alleviate (or prevent!) most joint and/or muscle soreness. For example, when my throwing elbow gets sore, I stretch out all of the muscles in my lower arm, upper arm, and shoulder. Having all of the muscles and tendons more loose and flexible prevents unnecessary stress on the joint. (Always remember that the whole system is connected.)

Muscle soreness is even more straight forward--do some gentle calisthenics to warm the muscle group up, and then stretch it. Stretching after every round will help to improve your recovery time, although it always takes rest for muscles to recover fully.

I throw a lot of forehand and I've had back/core pain similar to what you're describing. I've found it very relieving to stretch my upper leg muscles--hamstrings, glutes, hip flexors, and quads--as well as doing some slow shoulder rolls. (If you already have a sore back, trying to actively stretch your core muscles won't really help. It can actually make it worse.)

I'm not saying that form isn't important. It is a lot easier to focus on improving your form when you don't have the distraction of back pain! (Also, good throwing form requires flexibility...it all comes to the same end.)

 

[tu-f-o]

does anyone have wrist soreness from forehands?
i think that's what's killin me right now.
i hate that feeling when your wrist hurts. can't do much. ice, stretch, takes time to go away
how do u prevent that when throwing alot with lots of wrist snap?

 

[fasteddy8170]

Well, I totally agree with the stretching thing. Especially at my age of 44. But I don't think the pains I've had recently regarding forehand has been due to me being tight. It's been a factor of bad form leading my body to do things it shouldn't be doing.

tu-f-o . . . I've had a sore middle finger for the last 4 days and the pain kind of circulates down to my wrist. So, it could be something else besides the wrist snap that is bothering your wrist. If it's not that, maybe it's just a factor of not throwing so many at one time. However, if you're getting a sore wrist during a casual round of playing, then you better get that looked at.

But for me personally, and the pains I've had, it's definitely bad form induced.

 

[fasteddy8170]

sidewinder22, since I haven't been able to throw the last couple days due to the weather and my sore middle finger palm, I've been comparing the slow-motion video of your one-step BH to my own. Obviously there are many differences that make my throw inferior.

But there's one concept I hope you can explain to me that I think can help what I'm doing. I notice my rear foot comes off the ground WAY before yours does. We've spent a lot of time talking about weight shift and how my rear foot doesn't do what it should. But you've never mentioned how early it comes up.

In your case, your rear toe is still on the ground even though the disc is well out in front of you but still in your hand. Whereas, in my case, my rear toe is barely on the ground and the disc is just going past the rear side of my body. It's like that foot comes up WAY too early. As a doublecheck, I viewed HyzerUniBomber's one-step videos as well. His rear toe also stays on the ground until the disc is out in front of him.

What's the deal? I guess I'm surprised this hasn't come up yet.

 

[sidewinder22]

Post #27, no? Feldy also talks about when/how to bring the rear foot forward in the hip to the sky vid.

It doesn't really matter whether or not the toes are on the ground or airborne at the hit.

What matters is how the heel(weight) leaves the ground, as you should be pushing "longer" with/from the instep driving your weight into the target. At the hit my toes are on the ground(sometimes/depends), but they aren't doing anything at that point besides dragging a little like Greg Norman/Will S. My foot has everted/pivoted and just maintaining torque in the direction of the shot. My width of stance is much more narrow and less flexible than Will S, but our rear foot is the same essential forward move.

McBeth's rear foot is totally airborne on his standstills(also uses a very wide stance, but uses more linear power/weight shift), the heel leads the toes like Superman flying, he's driven his heel(weight) all way forward well before the hit. So what's the difference between your rear foot being airborne and McBeth's also being airborne? And the same between McBeth, Will and me... The heel leading the toes targetward from the ground after everting or pivoting the foot instead of spinning out.