Form Check

[bryantlikes]

The tilt should change somewhat/rock between the feet, it shouldn't really be maintained. I think the OT video has some camera parallax, look at Simon in the video below, his hips are more level and then downhill striding into plant after crossover.

I took the image above but drew the lines between his knees.

Seems like a more accurate way to guage the hip angle?

 

[sidewinder22]

I took the image above but drew the lines between his knees.

Seems like a more accurate way to guage the hip angle?

Not really because the femurs and shins are at different angles from each other.

I think his pelvis is actually level in the first frame. The disc appears to be right at his belt line and where the angle changes from the upper and lower body <.

 

[Brychanus]

This is mostly for my own reference but with the Overthrow Simon slow mo it looks like he keeps that front part of the hip tilted up through the majority of the X-step which is kind of what I'm trying but I end up "going uphill" as you said. I think I also swing my left thigh behind while his left thigh basically stays perpendicular to his hip/ground.

I've learned a lot from the OT montage but this is one of the big mistakes I made when looking at it.

FWIW, for Simon I look at that video from Post 380 due to the Overthrow parallax issues SW mentioned. IMO It's the easiest to see the mapping between various drill moves and Simon's form from "90 degrees" to the stride path like that. It's hard to visualize the pelvis action when he's moving ~20 degrees relative to the camera like that.

I got super confused by the interactions between the legs, hips, and ground in the OT montage due to the parallax. It actually kept me from understanding one of the most important take home points from the Hershyzer 2 drill.

The figure 8 hip action is in 3 dimensions (there's a name for that in geometry but I keep forgetting it) and how it occurs is confusing at first. The way the legs move can even seem to look fundamentally different depending on different camera angles at first. You can even get illusions about when certain events happen in the sequence, so I'm very sympathetic to anyone who gets confused.

I put a couple images here to help visualize some of the relative pelvis/body rock/leg action from a couple different camera angles.

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3859653&postcount=70

Did learning all this fix my form right away? No, but it helps me understand how the moves fit together.

 

[texasissouth]

I can't tell but I think this also suffers from the same parallax? Because Pauly also has that slight hip tilt through a lot of the x step beginnings.

 

[bryantlikes]

I can't tell but I think this also suffers from the same parallax? Because Pauly also has that slight hip tilt through a lot of the x step beginnings.

I think it is fairly hard to see hip tilt because the femur is pushing up/back which kind of distorts the view. In this video they put a stick through the belt buckle to help visual the tilt which I found very helpful.

 

[casmith175]

This is the overthrow video SW mentioned on the previous page. Up up down up is the proper sequence of this hips according to Josh. If anything, this video helped me shorten my x-step.

Only somewhat related, have you tried to get the feeling of "corking" with your core, rather than turning backwards with the shoulders? I can't tell if there would be a difference for you or not trying to gain that feeling in your reach-back.

 

[Brychanus]

I have seen that OT video a few times. Usually I don't speak up about these things so directly as to mark up an instructor's video. I like Josh and I know his channel is popular, but my understanding of how to move to shift went through another drastic revision overnight. It is so easy to misunderstand "the good swing." I frequently think about taking down my channel and restarting it from scratch later because I feel increasingly irresponsible. I'm only saying that so that you know my main motive is in an effort to learn it and teach it "right" - YMMV!

In particular, what Josh is showing is one of the core issues that shows up in pretty much every online channel out there either in how people speak or how they move (and usually both, including my current content). SW/seabas had it right, but I'm very sympathetic that it's hard to understand and learn to do because I still am myself!

I went through the effort of marking some parts of what can go wrong that show up in Josh's breakdown when you suffer from illusions in camera angles and didn't learn how to do SW's drills. I am using the same video of Simon linked above at 90 to tee vs. what Josh is showing here. Hopefully it can show you why camera angles are so insidious and save you some trouble if you want to throw more like Simon or Gibson or McBeth etc. It is harder to learn those moves than what Josh is showing here, but possible with SW's drills (and input).

Josh's lower body still "squishes the bug" in his backswing and swing, and his hips are moving in a fundamentally rotational pattern, not an abrupt lateral shift. His hips don't swivel and buttwipe, and he cannot stride off his rear leg like top throwers. He doesn't get in a posture to "preset his booty" and close his hips heading into the movement. His hips and knees are backwards in terms of how they should interact with the legs and ground. His hips are mostly rotating on a plane somewhat parallel to the ground rather than swiveling in a Figure 8 in both dimensions. As a result, if you watch him throw, you'll notice that his rear side swings and spins around his plant leg into follow through.

I think the reasons that Josh throws as far as he does are (1) he has pretty good upper body force transfer and (2) he still generates decent lag and does get his weight into his throws. He would likely throw (much?) farther more easily if he fixed these mechanics.

Gotta do the drills & get the critiqued to learn "the move."

 

[texasissouth]

I'm glad you did this, I actually meant to go through that Simon video and also the same channel has two of Eagle as well and they both kind of have that upward tilt through the first part of the X step. I think it might just be a byproduct of pushing forward hard with that right foot.

I went through the effort of marking some parts of what can go wrong that show up in Josh's breakdown when you suffer from illusions in camera angles and didn't learn how to do SW's drills. I am using the same video of Simon linked above at 90 to tee vs. what Josh is showing here. Hopefully it can show you why camera angles are so insidious and save you some trouble if you want to throw more like Simon or Gibson or McBeth etc. It is harder to learn those moves than what Josh is showing here, but possible with SW's drills (and input).

 

[sidewinder22]

This is the overthrow video SW mentioned on the previous page. Up up down up is the proper sequence of this hips according to Josh. If anything, this video helped me shorten my x-step.

Only somewhat related, have you tried to get the feeling of "corking" with your core, rather than turning backwards with the shoulders? I can't tell if there would be a difference for you or not trying to gain that feeling in your reach-back.

FYI wasn't referencing it, and don't totally agree with it.

Not sure there is really one-way, but IMO to start it's down(fall targetward), then up, down, up, like a gallop. But also like Brychanus mentioned Josh's pelvis is open here while GG is closed. Also pretty sure that Josh is naturally pigeon toed/anteverted hips.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwy1HNMfhbk#t=3m30s

 

[casmith175]

FYI wasn't referencing it, and don't totally agree with it.

Not sure there is really one-way, but IMO to start it's down(fall targetward), then up, down, up, like a gallop. But also like Brychanus mentioned Josh's pelvis is open here while GG is closed. Also pretty sure that Josh is naturally pigeon toed/anteverted hips.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwy1HNMfhbk#t=3m30s

Oops sorry, I very clearly misread one of the earlier posts.

Interesting observations. So what is the ultimate goal of the first two "up" sequences in Josh's video? Is the idea to keep the hips in a position where the x-step is forced to be small and prevent turning away from the target early?

I myself find that I have to really force my left hip into a closed position during the x step or it naturally wants to open up when the foot lands (and cause early turn-back). Still working on this actively in my form.

As it applies to Brian could this help prevent an early turn?

 

[casmith175]

Also on a sidenote in defense of Josh and "squash the bug". I think squash the bug is a pre-youtube and (even pre-slow motion) verbal queue that attempts to mimic what Simon and PMB are able to do in their throws. I remember hearing this when I was learning to hit a baseball as a kid 25 years ago!

What Josh is demonstrating is a really good attempt to mimic Simon, but he's obviously no Simon. Probably a good instructional video for someone learning form, but I doubt it would get anybody to Simon level (if that's even possible)

 

[texasissouth]

FYI wasn't referencing it, and don't totally agree with it.

Not sure there is really one-way, but IMO to start it's down(fall targetward), then up, down, up, like a gallop. But also like Brychanus mentioned Josh's pelvis is open here while GG is closed. Also pretty sure that Josh is naturally pigeon toed/anteverted hips.

Josh aside, I'm not sure I quite agree with the hip line on GG in that frame. If I were going to eyeball it myself it would end up tilted upward. However this is all just dudes drawing lines in paint, not really the pinnacle of accuracy. I'm going to look for more motion capture stuff in the future, someone MoCapped Tristan and Ezra and it's pretty cool. I know someone else got footage of Gilbert and Simon but I can't find that one. He also did a 2D to 3D AI thing for Paul

 

[Brychanus]

He also did a 2D to 3D AI thing for Paul

You will also like this thread. Dekuscrub got a pretty nifty app that infers 3D dynamics and release speed from video. So far I believe he only applied the streamlined version to GG (convenient!). I haven't pestered him given that he did this on his free time, but I do think it'd be a very fun tool if it were accessible.

 

[sidewinder22]

Josh aside, I'm not sure I quite agree with the hip line on GG in that frame. If I were going to eyeball it myself it would end up tilted upward. However this is all just dudes drawing lines in paint, not really the pinnacle of accuracy. I'm going to look for more motion capture stuff in the future, someone MoCapped Tristan and Ezra and it's pretty cool. I know someone else got footage of Gilbert and Simon but I can't find that one. He also did a 2D to 3D AI thing for Paul

While I agree that 3d capture is the best way to tell, however I don't think it's needed in the pics here. Like I said before there is no One-Size-Fits-All. Look at their torso leaning targetward compared to the Simon leaning away in the OT video. It would be incredibly awkward with upward pelvis leaning targetward.

 

[texasissouth]

While I agree that 3d capture is the best way to tell, however I don't think it's needed in the pics here. Like I said before there is no One-Size-Fits-All. Look at their torso leaning targetward compared to the Simon leaning away in the OT video. It would be incredibly awkward with upward pelvis leaning targetward.

Hmm this is a lot to chew on compared to other videos I've been watching in terms of hip tilt, I mean the mocap Ezra is clearly hip tilt up to me but these stills are good and clearly down, but then I've seen other stills of Eagle where he's tilted up.

Anyway here is some new video. I tried out what I thought/felt was a significant hop and it... wasn't. But it seems better, and these Comets were going at least 20' further than the other day.

 

[sidewinder22]

From the front view it's tricky because if you look at his shirt it looks uphill, but the butt view clearly shows the opposite.

 

[sidewinder22]

Turn your camera sideways, you are tiny.

Looks like your front foot is pointed at target and you are too upright so you aren't really loading the torso back behind the rear hip.

 

[texasissouth]

Turn your camera sideways, you are tiny.

Looks like your front foot is pointed at target and you are too upright so you aren't really loading the torso back behind the rear hip.

Thank you, I realize this is a terrible angle, I've just been lazy since I buried my tripod when cleaning the other day and this was sort of spur of the moment to see what a hop looked like.

Probably gonna be a hop guy moving forward, interesting that I'm landing open though, I'll work on that moving forward as well as forward tilt. Though a lot of time when I add forward tilt everything comes out on steep hyzers.

 

[sidewinder22]

I'd say Paul's pelvis is going downhill here.

 

[casmith175]

Thank you, I realize this is a terrible angle, I've just been lazy since I buried my tripod when cleaning the other day and this was sort of spur of the moment to see what a hop looked like.

Probably gonna be a hop guy moving forward, interesting that I'm landing open though, I'll work on that moving forward as well as forward tilt. Though a lot of time when I add forward tilt everything comes out on steep hyzers.

Hop guy!!!!

Now go find your tripod