Getting Discs "Up To Speed"

[Dan Ensor]

I have a lot of thoughts on this. Sadly, I don't feel I'll be able to convey them; I will attempt, though.

(Don't take anything here too literally. Measurements are very rough estimates. Proportions are only meant to demonstrate points I'm going to touch on.)
"Up to speed" is different than "Over speed".
Up to speed is necessary to get a disc to glide. Over speed is necessary to create positive lift and high speed stability.
A Nuke is "Up to speed" at 250' of power for about 150' of the flight. A Nuke is "up to speed" at 450' of power for about 150'.
A Nuke is never "over speed" at 250' of power. A nuke is "over speed" at 450' of power for about 200'.

(This is the important part)
In a 20mph headwind, these numbers change dramatically. Nuke at 250' of power will be over speed for 100', at speed for 100', and under speed for 50'. 450' of power, it's over speed for about 300', at speed for about 100', and under for the last 50'.
The player throwing 250 has never seen his disc fly over speed, and probably turned it over into a roller in that 100'. If he didn't, it's at speed for 2/5 of the flight, as opposed to 3/5.
The player throwing 450 knows what his disc will do, and only has to know that it will do it longer. It's over speed for 2/3 vs 4/9; and at speed for 2/9 vs 1/3.
Do the math, and it's more consistent to throw slower discs, just based on the amount of time they're going to be acting a certain way, and being able to predict that action.

(Another important part)
The more "over speed" you can get a disc, the more lift it gets. That means you can throw lower, more nose down (more consistent) shots. If you come across "dead air" a disc over speed will lose less altitude than one at or under speed.

(Almost done)
The more "over speed" you can get, the less you have to account for fade. It still fades just as much whether you're below, at, or over speed, but the percentages are different. This is part of the reason people say slower discs are more consistent. Faster discs might fade more reliably, but that's such a small portion of the flight that it's not a travesty if it doesn't come back (when you're over speed).


Here's the kicker:
If you ever plan to throw the fastest disc in your bag over speed, you need to know what happens to discs when you throw them over speed. If you always use max D drivers at speed vs fwd over speed, you won't have that skill set for the future.



If you can glean information from this post, please translate for others. I don't think I did very well explaining it:doh:
If you don't believe in "up to speed", just watch 2 people (one throws 300-, one 450+) throw katanas and turn them over. They are accomplished very differently. The 250' turn over looks very unnatural to me.
omt ... faster discs don't lose speed as fast as slower discs. If you're not getting more distance out of a high speed disc, it's a grip issue or nose angle issue, not a power issue. I hope the rest of my post was coherent enough that it's obvious that I am not advocating 250' throwers start using nukes and katanas to get more distance.

 

[thrembo]

I think that this is the 1st time that 100+ disc golfers have ever agreed on anything!

 

[teemkey]

Are there data to indicate the actual intended speed for discs (in mph or kph)?

Picking up on Dan's point about headwinds, is it then possible to quantify when a less powerful player can throw the high-speed stuff on its manufacturer-designed flight path, given the player knows his/her usual out of hand speed and the current headwind speed?

We certainly have the technology to determine the speed of a disc, so why aren't the manufacturers publishing the speed needed to evoke the intended flight path for their disc models.

 

[sneakytiki]

If I am not mistaken, the speed rating follows extremely closely with the rim width of the disc. More rim, more inertia, more force necessary to get a disc to a certain speed.

 

[depster]

I guess I need to buy a radar gun

 

[kevdiv48]

If I am not mistaken, the speed rating follows extremely closely with the rim width of the disc. More rim, more inertia, more force necessary to get a disc to a certain speed.

Generally yes. Some very OS discs will cut through the air less effectively* than other discs of the same rim width due to the extremely blunt shape of the nose.

*I word it this way because I am still trying to understand how rim width and shape transfers to the speed in which a disc travels. For instance I can grab a putter and grab a distance driver and throw them with the same arm speed, but they clearly travel through the air at different speeds. So rim shape and width determines how much of the arm speed to transferred into disc travelling speed.
This brings up another point for cruising speed. I am not sure one can say that your arm and hand need to be moving at XXX mph to get ____ disc to fly as intended, because it's the combination of the arm speed and elusive "hit" to impart the spin and speed necessary to get a disc to fly as intended. Therefore, there would have to be a linear velocity AND required rpm to get a disc to fly as intended. All of which would be rather to difficult to precisely control from a user's standpoint.
This makes me curious of a disc throwing simulator, in which one could input the geometry of the disc, the velocity and rpm imparted on a disc and see how the flight came out, based on drag and aerodynamic properties of the disc.

 

[Dan Ensor]

Are there data to indicate the actual intended speed for discs (in mph or kph)?

Picking up on Dan's point about headwinds, is it then possible to quantify when a less powerful player can throw the high-speed stuff on its manufacturer-designed flight path, given the player knows his/her usual out of hand speed and the current headwind speed?

We certainly have the technology to determine the speed of a disc, so why aren't the manufacturers publishing the speed needed to evoke the intended flight path for their disc models.

There have been discs with specific mph ratings on them. I believe Vibram does, and there used to be another ... discwing, possibly.

A less powerful player can throw faster stuff into a headwind and get it to act like a more powerful player's disc in no wind, but you need to practice doing it to know how they're going to act, being in a completely different stage of flight than they were with XXmph less relative air speed.

Generally yes. Some very OS discs will cut through the air less effectively* than other discs of the same rim width due to the extremely blunt shape of the nose.

*I word it this way because I am still trying to understand how rim width and shape transfers to the speed in which a disc travels. For instance I can grab a putter and grab a distance driver and throw them with the same arm speed, but they clearly travel through the air at different speeds. So rim shape and width determines how much of the arm speed to transferred into disc travelling speed.
This brings up another point for cruising speed. I am not sure one can say that your arm and hand need to be moving at XXX mph to get ____ disc to fly as intended, because it's the combination of the arm speed and elusive "hit" to impart the spin and speed necessary to get a disc to fly as intended. Therefore, there would have to be a linear velocity AND required rpm to get a disc to fly as intended. All of which would be rather to difficult to precisely control from a user's standpoint.
This makes me curious of a disc throwing simulator, in which one could input the geometry of the disc, the velocity and rpm imparted on a disc and see how the flight came out, based on drag and aerodynamic properties of the disc.

Drivers don't lose speed as fast as putters. Most people release putters at a higher speed than drivers, but the putter will lose enough more speed to not go as far as drivers. It's harder to "hit" a driver than putter, from what I hear (experience would also tell me that's true).

 

[Dan Ensor]

If I am not mistaken, the speed rating follows extremely closely with the rim width of the disc. More rim, more inertia, more force necessary to get a disc to a certain speed.

I've recently been shown the errors in my thoughts here, so I'll tell you what I now believe:

Drivers lose speed slower than putters due to their reduced drag coefficient. Putters lose gyroscopic stability slower than drivers due to the increased ratio of rim weight vs. overall weight.

So "speed" as I think about it is when the retained speed outweighs the gyroscopic stability. This=fade

 

[Happablap]

I have fun when I play disc golf. That is the only thing that matters to me.

 

[depster]

I have fun when I play disc golf. That is the only thing that matters to me.

Ding!! Ding!! Ding!!

What do we have for him Johnny?

 

[mattc]

Are there data to indicate the actual intended speed for discs (in mph or kph)?

Picking up on Dan's point about headwinds, is it then possible to quantify when a less powerful player can throw the high-speed stuff on its manufacturer-designed flight path, given the player knows his/her usual out of hand speed and the current headwind speed?

We certainly have the technology to determine the speed of a disc, so why aren't the manufacturers publishing the speed needed to evoke the intended flight path for their disc models.

ok, here you go, have a look at this vibram fight ratings chart

 

[HeavyCritters]

I've never understood why the Destroyer and Boss are so popular. 95% of disc golfers aren't even able to get them up to speed.

This times 1000.

I met a self-proclaimed newbie on the course last night asking for some pointers.

He was RHFH'ing a 175 Pro Destroyer, and although he was getting decent distance out of it, it was FUGLY to watch.

I told him to grab a Teebird, watch a bunch of tutorial videos on YouTube (what up, Mike C.??) and wait on the Destroyer for awhile.