Help Finding Discs in Tournaments

[Horsman]

Let me start this off by saying that I think the way things are now are acceptable, I just want to see what other people think.

Should spectators be allowed to help players search for lost discs or tell players where their discs land.

You could argue that having spectators, caddies, film crews etc. could give players on those cards an advantage that is not quite fair to everyone in the tournament. Lets take McBeth. He obviously got to where he is in the game today because of outright skill and that has made him arguably the most popular disc golfer. Because of that he will probably always have some extra people watching his rounds live in person. Paul could potentially know that he can throw some crazy blind shots and not have to fear ever losing a disc because someone will most likely see where it lands. Is that unfair.

If it is unfair, then what could be done to stop that? I cant really think of anything reasonable that could be done to stop it from happening.

To be clear again, I do not think this is a problem. I just want to see what others have to say.

 

[biscoe]

Show them or tell them? yes, hard to stop and would be a nightmare to have to enforce a ban on it.
Actually search on the field of play? yes for non-elite events, maybe not (and trending toward fully not as time goes on) for elite events with my main motivation for saying that being crowd control issues.

 

[autocrosscrx]

I'm not sure any top pro is ever making a shot out of the fear of losing a disc. I'm also not sure the penalty of a lost disc is especially punitive. If you are in a bad enough spot to lose a disc in an event with volunteers and spectators, it is probably worth considering the re-tee anyway.

 

[biscoe]

I'm also not sure the penalty of a lost disc is especially punitive. If you are in a bad enough spot to lose a disc in an event with volunteers and spectators, it is probably worth considering the re-tee anyway.

It is so punitive that the PDGA has eliminated the penalty involved (stroke and distance) for all other scenarios. There are ways to lose a disc that don't involve your lie being exceedingly difficult were it found.

 

[Nova P]

I've often opined that a lost disc is the single worst penalty that can happen to a player. It is a quadruple whammy: stroke, distance, your disc is gone (probably forever), and everyone's grouchy at you for causing a 3-5-minute delay. (Three minutes on the clock for searching, plus 1-2 minutes of free searching time before someone realizes they ought to start a timer. . .)

 

[ohtobediscing]

Hmmmm----I've helped run a dozen or so tourneys and also functioned as a spotter on blind holes for most of them. None of them were elite events, although Feldberg, Nikko, et. al. we're at the LCO in Spokane.
I did spot for everyone, not just the high-and-mighties. And the TD wanted spotters to facilitate a good pace.

 

[Agricolae]

It is so punitive that the PDGA has eliminated the penalty involved (stroke and distance) for all other scenarios. There are ways to lose a disc that don't involve your lie being exceedingly difficult were it found.

Agreed. Lost disc stroke-and-distance penalty is about as bad as it gets. Having spectator spotters to help locate errant shots is a clear advantage.

 

[Arisugawa]

This is especially egregious for autumn golf in areas where the trees cover the course in fallen leaves. You can have a disc cleanly land in the fairway and be buried under so many leaves that it will not be found within the required time, especially if you are throwing blind without spotters to assist. It's painful enough when the lost disc rule is going to be enforced when the disc does not remain on the fairway - when the rule is enforced for a disc lost on the fairway it makes me question why I played the event.

 

[DiscFifty]

It's painful enough when the lost disc rule is going to be enforced when the disc does not remain on the fairway - when the rule is enforced for a disc lost on the fairway it makes me question why I played the event.

What should the rule be then????

 

[biscoe]

What should the rule be then????

That is a good question. Simply distance rather than stroke and distance is my first thought if nothing else is going to be allowed to be stroke and distance.

 

[Nova P]

If I were not such a misanthrope, I'd suggest keeping the stroke penalty and placing the lie at the consensus opinion of the last place a majoprity can agree they saw the disc, whether in the air as it disappeared around a corner or over the trees, into the treeline, into the weeds, etc.

Because I am a misanthrope, I anticipate incredible strife on some cards as some people try to game the system, others opt out of the discussion because they were staring at their phone or talking to their caddie, etc.

 

[holly7845]

Let me start this off by saying that I think the way things are now are acceptable, I just want to see what other people think.

Should spectators be allowed to help players search for lost discs or tell players where their discs land.

You could argue that having spectators, caddies, film crews etc. could give players on those cards an advantage that is not quite fair to everyone in the tournament. Lets take McBeth. He obviously got to where he is in the game today because of outright skill and that has made him arguably the most popular disc golfer. Because of that he will probably always have some extra people watching his rounds live in person. Paul could potentially know that he can throw some crazy blind shots and not have to fear ever losing a disc because someone will most likely see where it lands. Is that unfair.

If it is unfair, then what could be done to stop that? I cant really think of anything reasonable that could be done to stop it from happening.

To be clear again, I do not think this is a problem. I just want to see what others have to say.

very interesting point I've never really thought of. Makes sense though as Paul's crowd could have 50 people searching for a disc, while one of the lower cards could have only the cardmates. Seems slightly unfair when I think about it.

Side Note: At one event last year, we had spectators and my competitor threw an errant shot into the woods. We looked and looked and were approaching the 3 minutes, when the thrower said in a louder volume, "DOES ANYONE SEE A RED DISC?"

This spectator reached under his arm and said, "This one?" He had picked it up earlier and just held onto it, assuming he found it in the woods.

As the rules dictate, the card chose the best spot for it to be replaced and she played from there.

So bizarre.

 

[biscoe]

If I were not such a misanthrope, I'd suggest keeping the stroke penalty and placing the lie at the consensus opinion of the last place a majoprity can agree they saw the disc, whether in the air as it disappeared around a corner or over the trees, into the treeline, into the weeds, etc.

Because I am a misanthrope, I anticipate incredible strife on some cards as some people try to game the system, others opt out of the discussion because they were staring at their phone or talking to their caddie, etc.

That was the rule when I started playing. Way too much variance in play on things like blind shots. In general the spots tended to work out in the thrower's favor where possible. Penalty was probably closer to fitting the crime.

In the culture of today's pro game it would be a nightmare. I prefer cynic to misanthrope.

 

[davetherocketguy]

Should spectators be allowed to help players search for lost discs or tell players where their discs land.

Yes.

How would anyone enforce the alternative? To me, this is what disc golf is all about. Can't tell you how many times during a casual round strangers have come up to help me look for plastic as I am fumbling around in the shule and how many times I've helped others doing the same. To me, helping look for others plastic is just part of the culture and ought to be part of tourneys where practical. But as others have said I do agree that maybe this ought to be discouraged where there are very large galleries.

 

[Agricolae]

Distance without penalty would be straightforward. The thrower would be diligent looking for the disc lost under fall leaves somewhere in the middle of the fairway; less motivated if it is believed the disc may be in thick rough. That case would be covered by cardmates; advantage to them to find their fellow competitor's disc in a difficult or impossible lie.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Simplified and fair lost disc penalty could be player gets to choose a spot anywhere on the fairway no closer to the basket (with group judging appropriate "closeness") and gets a stroke penalty. Note: that lost disc, if subsequently found cannot be used the rest of the round to prevent temporarily "faking" a lost disc. This suggestion produces results that would not be much different from the player pitching out to the fairway if their disc was found in the schule. I get that sometimes a disc can be yanked so deep that it might take at least two throws to get out. However, should any errant throw really deserve more than a 1-stroke penalty? Even tossing in a pond is just 1 stroke and last point IB. And with this suggested lost disc rule change, the player will also be losing that disc at least for the round.

 

[Orioles_Lefty]

The more "spotters" one has, the more it would seem to invite going for a risky throw. I watch tournaments and think (after acknowledging I can't even make the throw I'm commenting about), "I'd be looking for that disc for the full allowed time." There's a downhill hole at DGLO I think early in the round where turned over RH backhands end up in a thick shule on the right. I'm always surprised how quickly disc are found, thanks to spotters and fans.

I don't really have an opinion on if fans should be allowed to help. I just wonder if the presence of fans invites "lost disc" risky lines.

 

[ballgolfconvert]

Simplified and fair lost disc penalty could be player gets to choose a spot anywhere on the fairway no closer to the basket (with group judging appropriate "closeness") and gets a stroke penalty. Note: that lost disc, if subsequently found cannot be used the rest of the round to prevent temporarily "faking" a lost disc. This suggestion produces results that would not be much different from the player pitching out to the fairway if their disc was found in the schule. I get that sometimes a disc can be yanked so deep that it might take at least two throws to get out. However, should any errant throw really deserve more than a 1-stroke penalty? Even tossing in a pond is just 1 stroke and last point IB. And with this suggested lost disc rule change, the player will also be losing that disc at least for the round.

This is why they need to have designated hazards like ball golf has. Drop where it first crossed the hard to search area.

 

[ILUVSMGS18]

The more "spotters" one has, the more it would seem to invite going for a risky throw. I watch tournaments and think (after acknowledging I can't even make the throw I'm commenting about), "I'd be looking for that disc for the full allowed time." There's a downhill hole at DGLO I think early in the round where turned over RH backhands end up in a thick shule on the right. I'm always surprised how quickly disc are found, thanks to spotters and fans.

I don't really have an opinion on if fans should be allowed to help. I just wonder if the presence of fans invites "lost disc" risky lines.

Yeah it can be tempting. I played the am side of GMC this year, and as I'm getting ready to tee 18 on Fox (White Tee) I'm way out of the lead and with a Discmania van pulling in the driveway (couldn't tell whose it was, was hoping for Simon naturally), I decided to throw a BH roller just because of the wow factor and the hope it would work (which it did ok). Would I have thrown the roller with less spectators? Possibly, but if it had been calm/tailwind, I'd probably have ripped a Zeus and tried to get all the way past the tree at the bottom of the hill.

 

[biscoe]

Simplified and fair lost disc penalty could be player gets to choose a spot anywhere on the fairway no closer to the basket (with group judging appropriate "closeness") and gets a stroke penalty. Note: that lost disc, if subsequently found cannot be used the rest of the round to prevent temporarily "faking" a lost disc. This suggestion produces results that would not be much different from the player pitching out to the fairway if their disc was found in the schule. I get that sometimes a disc can be yanked so deep that it might take at least two throws to get out. However, should any errant throw really deserve more than a 1-stroke penalty? Even tossing in a pond is just 1 stroke and last point IB. And with this suggested lost disc rule change, the player will also be losing that disc at least for the round.

Your definition of "simplified" and mine appear to differ.