How do you score this scenario?

[jobwilson]

A player is teeing off and throws the disc in the basket, but misses a mandatory. What happens next?

A. Player takes one stroke penalty, advances to drop zone and is now throwing for 3.
B. Because disc is in the basket, player is now considered "holed out". Player adds two strokes for misplaying the course and cards a 3.
C. Same scenario as option B, but player also adds one stroke for missing mandatory. Player cards a 4.
D. Other?

This is a discussion that I am bringing from reddit . I am in Camp A, but fellow DGCR member UnitedPuppySlayer is in Camp B.

 

[bradharris]

Hole out is defined as successful completion of a hole. It is NOT defined as "disc in the basket."

A is correct.

 

[bradharris]

I'll also add this line from the mando rule:

"A mandatory restricts the path the disc may take to the target. A disc must pass the correct side of the mandatory before the hole is completed"

So, by definition, you cannot hole out on a throw that misses the mando.

 

[Bamm]

If there is no drop zone would the player have to re-tee throwing his 3rd shot?

 

[bradharris]

If there is no drop zone would the player have to re-tee throwing his 3rd shot?

Yes.

 

[Aim For The Chains]

:clap:

 

[JC17393]

It's A. There is nothing in the rules that say that a disc landing in a basket is holed out no matter what. In the Mandatory rule, 804.02 A, it states "[a] disc must pass the correct side of the mandatory before the hole is completed." That means that if the disc hasn't passed the correct side, the hole hasn't been completed even if the disc is in the target. The player should go to the drop zone for the missed mandatory and play from there effectively throwing his 3rd shot.

If you look at the misplay rule, it never mentions where the disc ends up on a misplayed shot in terms of determining a penalty. The determining factor for what penalty a player takes in a misplay situation is determined by whether or not the player has thrown a subsequent shot after the misplayed one. If the player has not made a subsequent shot and has not turned in his scorecard (in the case of a misplay on the final hole of a round), there is no call for a two-throw penalty.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Depends on the timing.

Answer A is correct if it's recognized at the time that the player missed the Mando and has not yet holed out.

Answer B might happen if the thrower insists that's what he wants to do (take a 3) and does not play from the drop zone. If the thrower continues playing additional holes at that point, anyone can indicate the player has actually DNF'd per 803.03D(3) Intentionally Failing to Hole Out

The score of 4 given in Answer C happens if the group does not realize the player has missed the Mando until additional holes have been played. Again following 803.03D(3) the score is recorded as a 4, one for the throw, two for the misplay and one for not holing out.

 

[JC17393]

Answer B might happen if the thrower insists that's what he wants to do (take a 3) and does not play from the drop zone. If the thrower continues playing additional holes at that point, anyone can indicate the player has actually DNF'd per 803.03D(3) Intentionally Failing to Hole Out

While DNF is an option in that case, couldn't this also simply be converted to answer C as well by adding the extra throw for the failed hole out (since he's already assessed himself the two-throw misplay portion of the penalty)? I think that may be what I would do as the TD if presented with this situation.

IMO, the only way the player should be carding a 3 after beginning the hole as he did is if he threw his next shot from the drop zone and holed out from there while successfully navigating the mandatory (initial tee shot + penalty + drop zone shot = 3). Short of that, his score should most definitely be higher than three for the hole.

 

[Bamm]

[/QUOTE]The score of 4 given in Answer C happens if the group does not realize the player has missed the Mando until additional holes have been played. Again following 803.03D(3) the score is recorded as a 4, one for the throw, two for the misplay and one for not holing out.[/QUOTE]

It would really suck if I "aced" and then 3 holes later the other players on the card insisted I missed a mando and wanted me to card a 4. How can you make that call "later"?

 

[Thumber]

IMO, the only way the player should be carding a 3 after beginning the hole as he did is if he threw his next shot from the drop zone and holed out from there while successfully navigating the mandatory (initial tee shot + penalty + drop zone shot = 3). Short of that, his score should most definitely be higher than three for the hole.

agreed

 

[Cgkdisc]

The score of 4 given in Answer C happens if the group does not realize the player has missed the Mando until additional holes have been played. Again following 803.03D(3) the score is recorded as a 4, one for the throw, two for the misplay and one for not holing out.

It would really suck if I "aced" and then 3 holes later the other players on the card insisted I missed a mando and wanted me to card a 4. How can you make that call "later"?

It's not the other players in your group insisting that matters it's whether there actually was a mando that you missed. If this happens the presumption might be that no one in the group knew there was a mando until later and everyone in the group has to remember where they threw and perhaps refigure their score. Or, the group has to go back and look at the hole after the round to show where the mando was and who missed it.

 

[JC17393]

The score of 4 given in Answer C happens if the group does not realize the player has missed the Mando until additional holes have been played. Again following 803.03D(3) the score is recorded as a 4, one for the throw, two for the misplay and one for not holing out.

It would really suck if I "aced" and then 3 holes later the other players on the card insisted I missed a mando and wanted me to card a 4. How can you make that call "later"?

I would think that an ace would stick in people's minds a little bit. The flight path it took to get there would be part of the memory, no? I could see a scenario where the group discovers there's a mando on the hole that they didn't see and realizes that the ace shot went to the wrong side of it. Odds are probably good that if they didn't know about the mando, the ace thrower wasn't the only one who missed it.

However, that's the only way in which this would happen...that the whole group was unaware of the mando at the time and only discovered the existence of the mando later in the round or even after it. If the players in the group knew about the mando and didn't say anything about it until the group had finished the hole and then played subsequent holes...they'd all be in line for a DQ in my opinion. Players are obligated to make calls as they happen. Choosing not to make the call in the moment so they can slap the player with a harsher penalty after the fact is cheating. Unfortunately for the ace thrower, he'd still have to take his four, but the other group members would be kicked out of the tourney altogether.

 

[Bamm]

It's not the other players in your group insisting that matters it's whether there actually was a mando that you missed. If this happens the presumption might be that no one in the group knew there was a mando until later and everyone in the group has to remember where they threw and perhaps refigure their score. Or, the group has to go back and look at the hole after the round to show where the mando was and who missed it.

Gotcha. It would still suck...