Hyzer Flip Reversed?

[gradus]

 

[KDinIN]

Okay, so I appreciate all of the helpful responses, and I apologize for all of the infighting my question has brought forth.

The flex-shot and an s-curve shot are the same thing right? It makes sense, now that I think about it, that the s-curve would be what I experience, so now I have another question. I have thrown s-curves/flex shots (assuming those are the same thing.. if not I might be in more trouble...) with (more) under stable discs before, but have never really tried with with (less under/more over) stable discs before, because I have a hard enough time throwing a disc flat RHBH, so I have ventured into the world of anny. If I throw a FH or a BH anny, with an overstable disc, it will it hold the anny line throughout the HSS portion of its flight, and then it will s-curve back in the fade. So would a disc with more glide to it (does glide come from dome? The specifics of discs obviously allude me...) fade out flatter and theoretically fly farther than a disc that doesn't have the same glide and starts to fade and kind of knives into the ground?

 

[runningDoc]

The flex-shot and an s-curve shot are the same thing right?

no. they're actually different things:


HomeFeaturedHyzer Flip vs. S-Shot vs. Flex Shot: The Ultimate Guide
HYZER FLIP VS. S-SHOT VS. FLEX SHOT: THE ULTIMATE GUIDE

 

[runningDoc]

a lot of your questions have answers spread out throughout this site:

https://www.bestdiscgolfdiscs.com

 

[armiller]

The flex-shot and an s-curve shot are the same thing right? It makes sense, now that I think about it, that the s-curve would be what I experience, so now I have another question. I have thrown s-curves/flex shots (assuming those are the same thing.. if not I might be in more trouble...) with (more) under stable discs before, but have never really tried with with (less under/more over) stable discs before, because I have a hard enough time throwing a disc flat RHBH, so I have ventured into the world of anny. If I throw a FH or a BH anny, with an overstable disc, it will it hold the anny line throughout the HSS portion of its flight, and then it will s-curve back in the fade. So would a disc with more glide to it (does glide come from dome? The specifics of discs obviously allude me...) fade out flatter and theoretically fly farther than a disc that doesn't have the same glide and starts to fade and kind of knives into the ground?

Glad to hear from the OP again! You're asking somewhat complicated questions which will likely cause more of that fighting.

Flex-shot and S-curve are not the same thing. Without making anything too complicated, I think it's safe to say that a flex shot is thrown with anhyzer orientation at release, while S-curves are typically thrown flat or more likely with some hyzer.

I think for you, one of the most important things to understand is the speed of discs. In your initial post, you described throwing a "flex shot" with a Katana, which is a very fast disc. To me, this likely means you are not throwing it hard enough to get the disc's expected behavior. (I.e. you're not getting it fast enough to experience the "turn rating" of negative 3, and you're only seeing the "fade rating" of positive 3) You might try some slower discs. Try to get an S-curve out of a Leopard, or possibly an Avenger SS or Valkyrie, before figuring out how to do it with something over Speed 10.

And most importantly, learn by getting out and continuing to throw, especially with putters, mid-ranges, and fairways. The theory is interesting, but I never really understood the concepts of HSS, LSS, turn, "flippy," "hyzerflip," "S-curve," or "flex shot" until I got out and started messing around with different discs. Maybe I'm a slow learner...

 

[lyleoross]

All of the terms - flippy, OS, and US are subjective and player dependent. That said, the Innova rating system attempts to categorize them, but their rating system is essentially based on the skill set of a reasonably accomplished player.

For me, flippy means that the disc is more likely to flip over and land on it's side when I didn't intend it to. Again, that is dependent on me and how I threw the disc. For another player, the disc might fly perfect or even OS.

If you can accept the notion that it's all relative to the player, then even the most OS disc could be used to hyzer flip by the right player with the right technique (right being a term relative to getting the desired flight path). Any disc can be thrown on an S curve path, again, dependent on the player.

What that says is what's the point? If your goal is to make a certain throw on a certain type of hole, know your discs, know what path you want your disc to fly on, and pull the right disc. Let me repeat, know your disc, know what you want, and throw the right disc.

What the sport could use is a real universtal rating system. Build a machine that throws with X rotation, and Y forward speed. Throw every disc with said machine. Then give them ratings based on how they fly. The discs will still fly differently for different players, but you will have a true starting point.

 

[MonkeyGrass]

The confusion arises from the term 'overstable' which sound like the opposite of understable when, in fact, a disc can only be more or less understable - there is no overstable. It sometimes looks like overstable is a 'thing' because a disc with minimal understability thrown with insufficient speed will fade almost immediately without ever getting high speed turn. It also looks like overstability when a disc has monster fade. Stability (Turn) goes from zero (minimal understability) to -5, (maximum understability). There is no overstability. Anyone pitching a disc with a +1 or higher Turn is selling snakeoil.

No, I'm pretty sure most of the confusion comes into play when you start one of these absurd posts. :doh:

Yes, I understand the physics involved in a disc's flight. I also understand common sense. I applaud you for assuming I knew neither.

Anybody that's thrown a disc more than a few times understands what you're laying out. You can stop trying to sound like the smartest guy in the room now.

Trying, and failing miserably.

Then don't ask questions you don't want the answer to. Or would that be too smart a thing to do? Starting to think it may be.

I didn't see a question asked in his post.

Nobody asked you a question. You just start in with your quasi-scientific mumbo jumbo without any provocation whatsoever. I have a question for you though -

WILL YOU PLEASE SHUT THE $@#! UP WITH THIS NONSENSE? :gross:

Man, so many people have no idea what they are talking about on here.

Quoted for truth! :clap:

You raised the question as to whether I knew what I was talking about or if I wasn't explaining what I meant. Not technically in the form of a question, but a question nonetheless. And with that last nod to how juvenile this argument has become, I'm out a here. Wow.

The only thing "juvenile" about this entire thread is your insistence on trying to convince the board that somehow, in the course of less than 2 years, you've "figured out" DG on a level previously unheard of by mere mortals. :\

Just give it a rest dude. You come across like a complete ass on every single one of these threads. Please. Just - STOP.

 

[araytx]

IBL ...:wall:

 

[KDinIN]

So the S-curve should be the natural flight of an under stable disc that hasn't had its fade beaten out of it, while the flex shot is using an OS disc on an anny release to accomplish a similar flight path.

Since they have similar flight paths (not identical ones), I would assume the flex shot is ideal for a shot with a closer obstacle that can be cleared using the anny release, and then let it flex back around the obstacle, while the s-curve shot with an US disc would be more of a distance grab/avoiding late flight obstacles?

 

[armiller]

So the S-curve should be the natural flight of an under stable disc that hasn't had its fade beaten out of it, while the flex shot is using an OS disc on an anny release to accomplish a similar flight path.

Maybe a little bit simplistic, but that's the general idea, as long as you remember that overstable and understable are relative terms that occasionally start DGCR wars.

Since they have similar flight paths (not identical ones), I would assume the flex shot is ideal for a shot with a closer obstacle that can be cleared using the anny release, and then let it flex back around the obstacle, while the s-curve shot with an US disc would be more of a distance grab/avoiding late flight obstacles?

Barry Schultz likes talking about "disc awareness." Basically, you can use these shots for whatever you want when you get used to them and when the right situation arises. But yes, I suppose flex shots are nice to get around early obstacles, and S-curves with relatively understable discs are good for max distance. Any player's disc golf game improves big time when that player learns all their discs and has all the throws.

 

[DiscFifty]

I have a "stable" disc, it flies fairly straight for me.
I have an "understable" disc, it flies a bit to the right for me.
I have an "overstable" disc, it turns left for me.
I have a very "overstable" disc, it turns left very hard for me.
I have a very "understable" disc, it turns to the right hard for me and sometimes rolls very far.

There...now anyone at any educational level can understand stability.

 

[joecoin]

I have a "stable" disc, it flies fairly straight for me.
I have an "understable" disc, it flies a bit to the right for me.
I have an "overstable" disc, it turns left for me.
I have a very "overstable" disc, it turns left very hard for me.
I have a very "understable" disc, it turns to the right hard for me and sometimes rolls very far.

There...now anyone at any educational level can understand stability.

Oh, you must be left handed.

 

[KniceZ]

Oh, you must be left handed.

I agree with DiscFify and I'm definitely RHBH

 

[digital]

This thread has made it way too far.

 

[DanJon]

This thread has made it way too far.

It's slightly Understable, but still has some fade left.

Good for those long distance bombs.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

This post is so insightful, it's worth repeating.

I understand what you're asking. To answer your question, not really. Think of disc flight as two phases:

1. High speed turn
2. Low speed fade

High speed turn is a gauge on how much turn a disc will have with different release speeds (assuming constant spin). A more understable disc will turn more, a more stable disc is more resistant to turn. A lot of your overstable discs that you forehand are resistant to turn.

Low speed fade is what happens to a disc once it runs out of spin... A disc with a lot of low speed fade will want to find the ground fast and will begin to nose dive (thus changing the angle of the disc, which takes it in the specified direction aka fade). A disc with little low speed fade tends to stay pretty neutral and not change angles as much which would cause it to not deviate from trajectory as much when it runs out of spin.

So back to your point... Yes, you can release a less stable disc on a hyzer and have the high speed turn cause it to flip to flat and go straight. No, you cant throw a more overstable disc on an anhyzer and have it "anhyzer flip" to straight because, as we mentioned, those discs are RESISTANT to turn, thus they hold the initial angle of release. What will happen with the more overstable disc is the low speed fade will kick in sooner which will pull the disc out of the anhyzer release, but it will also cause it to continue changing angles as it fades and finds the ground. You will get an S-flight pattern instead of a straight pattern.

Hope that helped.

 

[araytx]

I have a "stable" disc, it flies fairly straight for me.
I have an "understable" disc, it flies a bit to the right for me.
I have an "overstable" disc, it turns left for me.
I have a very "overstable" disc, it turns left very hard for me.
I have a very "understable" disc, it turns to the right hard for me and sometimes rolls very far.

There...now anyone at any educational level can understand stability.

Again, the over-simplified version^^^. Not totally incorrect, but really not enough info, hence the reason for the OP's question and the point made by some that that "Overstable" and "Understable" are not opposites in the truest sense of the word, as is implied by this oft-given explanation of stability.

 

[RomServo]

Im probably going to catch alot of sh!t for this, but im gonna say, yes. In fact i do it all the time. I only drive RHFH and i can release an understable disc on a hyzer angle and let its understability flip it flat for a perfectly straight line. Its the exact same mechanics just facing the other direction.

 

[INTP]

Im probably going to catch alot of sh!t for this, but im gonna say, yes. In fact i do it all the time. I only drive RHFH and i can release an understable disc on a hyzer angle and let its understability flip it flat for a perfectly straight line. Its the exact same mechanics just facing the other direction.

I can do the same. It's not a reversed hyzer flip. It's still just a hyzer flip.

Hyzer is relative to the direction of spin of the disc. Therefore what counts as hyzer gets redefined when the disc spins the other way due to throwing LHBH/RHFH. Still a plain hyzer flip.

Hyzer flip is really about the roll axis of the disc in flight. Starts angled one way, rolls to parallel to the ground, rolls beyond that parallel angle, stalls, then comes back toward the starting angle.

 

[RomServo]

I can do the same. It's not a reversed hyzer flip. It's still just a hyzer flip.

Hyzer is relative to the direction of spin of the disc. Therefore what counts as hyzer gets redefined when the disc spins the other way due to throwing LHBH/RHFH. Still a plain hyzer flip.

Hyzer flip is really about the roll axis of the disc in flight. Starts angled one way, rolls to parallel to the ground, rolls beyond that parallel angle, stalls, then comes back toward the starting angle.

Right! i thought thats what he was asking. Maybe i misread it. There is no "reverse hyzer flip" per se. However, you can hyzer flip forehand... if thats what he meant. And no, it not the same as a flex-shot, or S-shot, its still a hyzer flip.