I think Val got burned.

[SonicGuy]

I don't think this is right. Open container laws come to mind. I was once stopped by a cop who saw a couple empty beer bottles on the floor of my back seat. I was a home brewer at the time. I had brought a couple of my IPAs for a friend to try before we went to shoot pool. Because home brewers reuse bottles, I had rinsed them out with water. Cop said it was beer (at the time, I didn't know all cops were Douche Baggjngtons). This DoucheNozzle didn't show up in court, so it was dropped but I was charged nonetheless.

A good lawyer would have had that dropped no matter if the cop showed or not. Surprise surprise, that cop was wrong.

 

[dorseymatt]

If the PDGA intended to say that players are subject to the same penalty as their caddies, they could have easily done so and with less verbiage in the rulebook. Because they did not, they have left it open to interpretation by design, imo.

I missed Dustin Keegan's observations of the Saturday round. He speaks a little bit about the Val situation, but more revealing to me were his comments regarding the unprofessional manner in which the FPO field was treated by the event staff.

Here is his comment for anyone interested:

Spoiler

Hi everyone, thanks for being so patient and peaceful in all your responses, lol. I might make you all wait longer next time
My post yesterday didn't really have anything to do with Val being disqualified, even tho I disagree with the outcome. A courtesy violation/meltdown (which I witnessed), receives a warning and greatly affects the rest of the tourney for many other ladies. Yet, a hall-of-famer (and mom) caddying for 4 holes with an empty beer can in a koozie gets said player immediately DQ'd. Just doesn't add up to me. Val and Sharon are heroes of mine and represent how I feel like humans should act and live in this world. Kudos to the way you both reacted to the outcome. Everyone should learn a thing or two from these great women.
I'm just disappointed in how the FPO division is being treated at some of the larger events that I have been too this year. I play MPO, so when I get to watch golf at these events, I watch the ladies. It just seems wrong that they pay pretty much the same amount of money and don't get even close as much respect from the event. Saturday at De La was hard for me to watch. The spotters left by the time the ladies got to the holes that really needed them, the water was empty on the ENTIRE course by the time the ladies were halfway through the round, Innova was tearing down banners while the lead card of women had 4-5 holes left, the staff was nowhere to be seen when they finished the round. This was what I witnessed in just 7 holes of following. Ask the ladies, I'm sure that list is a little longer than just that.
I called out the PDGA because they are our governing body and attach their name to this event. They talk about growing the game and all of that, but they are really only growing the men's side of the game. For the women to have no live scoring the final round, except for the lead card, and for them to not have their names called out on the loudspeaker before teeing off like the entire men's division is just not acceptable in my opinion. It really doesn't take that much more effort to just make sure everyone gets the same experience.
I love disc golf and I will always cherish what it has brought to my life. I just have higher standards and hopes for our sport. I apologize to anyone who may have felt disrespected by my post. If you know me, you know I never wish anything negative to anyone. I just wish we can all coexist in a beautiful disc golf world where everyone loves and supports each other. When we all come together is when we will truly grow the sport!
Peace & Love

While on the hand treating Val so harshly and on the other treating the FPO as an afterthought, the PDGA and event organizers look heavy handed and hypocritical, at least to me.

This has made me an instant DK fan.

 

[DG_player]

The work of fiction is that the rule was ambiguous. Talk of PDGA intentions when writing the rule only matter if the rule is ambiguous. Unambiguous rules have the effect as written regardless of the intent when drafting.

The fact is that the rule is clear and concise. Reading alternative interpretions is intellectually dishonest. And it absolutely does matter. If the TD thought that he had the ability to choose his own response he may have acted differently than he did, as he obviously thought his hands were tied. The argument matters because it fundamentally affects the way in which caddy-player punishments are handed out.

I don't know how you can claim it is intellectually dishonest to think the rule is unclear and ambiguous. I can take the offending sentence and add "Misconduct by a caddie may subject both the player and caddie to disqualification and/or suspension, at the TD's discretion" or change it to "Misconduct by a caddie may subject both the player and caddie to disqualification and/or suspension, pursuant to the applicable rule." These both have completely different meanings and all it took was adding a qualifying clause. If it was clear and unambiguous, adding "pursuant to the applicable rule" would be contradictory instead of clarifying. This isn't the case though. They list two penalties with no guidance or specifics as to how to apply them. A logical conclusion would be that there isn't any discretion involved, since in any other case in the rules where a TD is given discretion it's explicitly stated.

I completely agree that the caddie rules as a whole lack clarity, but calling them unambiguous is ridiculous.

 

[@iDiscGolf]

If the PDGA intended to say that players are subject to the same penalty as their caddies, they could have easily done so and with less verbiage in the rulebook. Because they did not, they have left it open to interpretation by design, imo.

I missed Dustin Keegan's observations of the Saturday round. He speaks a little bit about the Val situation, but more revealing to me were his comments regarding the unprofessional manner in which the FPO field was treated by the event staff.

Here is his comment for anyone interested:
Hi everyone, thanks for being so patient and peaceful in all your responses, lol. I might make you all wait longer next time
My post yesterday didn't really have anything to do with Val being disqualified, even tho I disagree with the outcome. A courtesy violation/meltdown (which I witnessed), receives a warning and greatly affects the rest of the tourney for many other ladies. Yet, a hall-of-famer (and mom) caddying for 4 holes with an empty beer can in a koozie gets said player immediately DQ'd. Just doesn't add up to me. Val and Sharon are heroes of mine and represent how I feel like humans should act and live in this world. Kudos to the way you both reacted to the outcome. Everyone should learn a thing or two from these great women.
I'm just disappointed in how the FPO division is being treated at some of the larger events that I have been too this year. I play MPO, so when I get to watch golf at these events, I watch the ladies. It just seems wrong that they pay pretty much the same amount of money and don't get even close as much respect from the event. Saturday at De La was hard for me to watch. The spotters left by the time the ladies got to the holes that really needed them, the water was empty on the ENTIRE course by the time the ladies were halfway through the round, Innova was tearing down banners while the lead card of women had 4-5 holes left, the staff was nowhere to be seen when they finished the round. This was what I witnessed in just 7 holes of following. Ask the ladies, I'm sure that list is a little longer than just that.
I called out the PDGA because they are our governing body and attach their name to this event. They talk about growing the game and all of that, but they are really only growing the men's side of the game. For the women to have no live scoring the final round, except for the lead card, and for them to not have their names called out on the loudspeaker before teeing off like the entire men's division is just not acceptable in my opinion. It really doesn't take that much more effort to just make sure everyone gets the same experience.
I love disc golf and I will always cherish what it has brought to my life. I just have higher standards and hopes for our sport. I apologize to anyone who may have felt disrespected by my post. If you know me, you know I never wish anything negative to anyone. I just wish we can all coexist in a beautiful disc golf world where everyone loves and supports each other. When we all come together is when we will truly grow the sport!
Peace & Love



While on the hand treating Val so harshly and on the other treating the FPO as an afterthought, the PDGA and event organizers look heavy handed and hypocritical, at least to me.

Thanks for sharing this.

 

[@iDiscGolf]

In regards to this topic, shoutout to Jamie Thomas specifically and the podcast for addressing the disqualification and the PDGA involvement. I feel you approached it with an unbiased opinion and outside view and were reporting on the facts.

You were spot on! Kudos.

 

[roadtripstuff]

Will someone answer me this, mtl maybe.

So it was a PDGA official that witnessed the issue that warranted the disqualification correct? 1. Why wait until the round was over? 2. Did they witness the act of drinking alcoholic beverage or only the carrying of?

From what Jamie said on the upshot he said that someone with the card, i can't remember if he actually said player or not, approached the PDGA official and asked if they planned on doing anything about Val's caddy.

After that is where reports are differing from both sides. One side said they approached Val during the road and they discussed the situation. The other side says that the Jenkins camp had no clue until they received phone calls around 10:00 PM explaining the situation.

 

[@iDiscGolf]

From what Jamie said on the upshot he said that someone with the card, i can't remember if he actually said player or not, approached the PDGA official and asked if they planned on doing anything about Val's caddy.

After that is where reports are differing from both sides. One side said they approached Val during the road and they discussed the situation. The other side says that the Jenkins camp had no clue until they received phone calls around 10:00 PM explaining the situation.

I think I posted that before the podcast came out. He answered allot and addressed allot of mine and others questions.

 

[beereakfast]

It seems to me that if it had been decided on the spot that the rule allowed TD discretion, this would set a precedent that opens a large can of worms.
The rule may be altered, but it will not change this outcome. And likely will simply clarify the decision.
For myself, i do think the result was overly harsh, but i can see why it went that way.
As was stated, there are no trash cans outside the tiny parking lot. It has little relevance. No more than the local culture of smoking and drinking but keeping it on the DL. The main fact is that the folks in question agreed with the decision, and moved on.
Now back to entertaining the wild theories!

(Yes, i am simply entertaining myself by posting, but i enjoy it! So there! NoIll had it right tho!)

 

[SD86]

FWIW having an empty beer can is NOT possession of alcohol in the eyes of the law.

Yes it is, at least in some States. Please refer to my "open beer law" commentary earlier in this thread.

 

[F.Luke]

Yes it is, at least in some States. Please refer to my "open beer law" commentary earlier in this thread.

Nobody's got time to read this thread!

We just want to spout off and pretend we know it all.

 

[Grippenripp]

Yes it is, at least in some States. Please refer to my "open beer law" commentary earlier in this thread.

I've been ticketed for being in posession of an empty beer can and having a buzz in public. Open flask tickets are handed like mad.

 

[joecoin]

A good lawyer would have had that dropped no matter if the cop showed or not. Surprise surprise, that cop was wrong.

Well that's a fallacy, no such thing as a good lawyer. Perhaps a lawyer well practiced in his craft?

"When their eloquence escapes me, their logic ties me up and rapes me."

 

[SonicGuy]

Yes it is, at least in some States. Please refer to my "open beer law" commentary earlier in this thread.

What state do you live in?

 

[JeremyKShort]

The rules against consuming alcohol are definitely what's stopping beer companies from sponsoring PDGA. NFL, nba, mlb, nhl, nascar and pga all have rules against drinking while playing, and look at how none of them have beer sponsors.

 

[davetherocketguy]

Ok...so everyone who thinks this situation was mishandled because the wording of the rule is poor let's see your revision to the rule without changing the intent from the PDGA.

I see a lot of stones being thrown but not too many solutions...

 

[Noill]

I'd just add some bit about TD discretion and how practical it is to allow the dude on the ground to consider what will cause the greatest good.

The intent of the rule is easily preserved this way and we cut out the bureaucratic nonsense.

 

[SonicGuy]

I'd just add some bit about TD discretion and how practical it is to allow the dude on the ground to consider what will cause the greatest good.

The intent of the rule is easily preserved this way and we cut out the bureaucratic nonsense.

You don't have to do anything, the word "may" says it all.

 

[dorseymatt]

You don't have to do anything, the word "may" says it all.

This is clearly wrong, even though I agree with your interpretation of the word may. As this thread has shown, some people read it some way, and some read it the other. The wording should be more precise. If the intent is to give the TD discretion (honestly, I'm not even sure that's the actual intent), then it should read something like, the TD is permitted to disqualify the player, based upon their discretion.

 

[Spiky]

We have been discussing this for 42 pages.

No one at any point has disputed that the TD had the right to DQ.

So I'm not sure why this is even going on?

OOOOOH it's because people don't know the rules, think that professional disc golf should be a kegger and hate anything the PDGA does.

Too many people think life should be like this. Truly obnoxious.

 

[Consult20]

The rules against consuming alcohol are definitely what's stopping beer companies from sponsoring PDGA. NFL, nba, mlb, nhl, nascar and pga all have rules against drinking while playing, and look at how none of them have beer sponsors.

The Brewers Stadium is called Miller Park, I'm pretty sure they're still making beer...