I want to argue "common knowledge" about discing down

[soulsuit]

I just wanted to say I thought there were some interesting points mixed in with all of this crap. I'm currently discing down for a while, but get this nagging feeling occasionally that a different, faster disc might be better for certain jobs (like the low ceiling comment). It's hard for me to tell WHEN that's a good decision, though. I'm still in the early stages, but feel drawn back to the faster discs when making mistakes out on the course. Thanks for the input and the attempt at an informative thread, ArcheType.

Oh, and by the way, an FLX Drone is a spike hyzer machine.

 

[IHearChains]

Since I've already mentioned mold minimizing, I'll go into that a little.

Me too.

Personally I find better consistency if I stick with a set of old-school discs that have similar rim width. Less variables in the grip, I guess. For example Star Starfire, Orc, Beast, Valk, Roadrunner covers the range of stabilities I need for most drives. I do carry some faster wide-rimmed drivers but I usually use them when I feel I can safely sacrifice precision to get that extra bit of distance. On tight technical holes I will go back to that old-school set which seems to give me the most consistency.

For me, grip and feel of particular rim width is important for consistency, so I've also learned to power down on that set of discs when needed. So I will throw a Roadrunner at low power on a 240 ft hole, when someone else might throw a Buzzz, and there is nothing at all wrong with that IMO.

At the same time, I am practicing to get better consistency with Buzzz and Wasp at full power, I am not there yet but I can see where it will give me more options in the future.

 

[atl scott]

Oh, and by the way, an FLX Drone is a spike hyzer machine.

This guy gets it.

 

[craftsman]

Arch, seems like your game's on the up

I agree with what you're sayin, as well as cw's mold comments, HOWEVER, it is the right thing to tell noobs to ditch hs drivers AND to cut back on molds (if they want to improve). Actually, its not just for noobs, even high level players- if one is trying to improve, its much easier to work on our issues with fewer, slower molds, reguardless of level of play or power.

While faster discs can hit lower lines and such, if one hasn't gained a full skill set, then it doesn't really matter. Also, I find that as you progress and get into competitive play, it becomes much more challanging to go back and build skill vs growing your comfort game. When new is the best time to learn, right?

I also what to share my belief that dgcr is f'n up discin down- I feel way to many see it as only mids and putters, and/but will have a full boat of molds. The idea of dd'n is not simply to improve d- its to really learn the game's most important discs on a multitude of lines. Plus, I feel the "no driver" thing leads to nose up issues.

While personally, the recent addition of some faster stuff and more molds has helped my game, there is a big difference between being able to throw (just about) any disc on a hole vs "this is the only thing that'll get me there". Most new players are just huckin it out there- you should now be using factors like wind, condition of green, how you're playin that day, and so forth to dictate those decisions. For most noobs, distance will be the only factor- so as you'll see, the whole "blank distance equates to this speed disc" is only an advanced noob thought

 

[deBebbler]

With that said, the "staple" distances given for throwing are about 250' with a putter, 300' with a mid, and 350' with a fairway. That's when "they" say you're about ready to move to bigger drivers.

Looks like I will never throw a wraith again. After a year of discing down, I am still over 50' short in each category.

Weak sauce.

 

[Technohic]

Without reading all of the thread. (sorry but, when there is a ton of nonsense, I'm done reading) I will say I agree with Arche and CW on some points.

Long story short, I was stuck on throwing only the discs I felt were in my ability and would try a faster disc every once in a while briefly only to have it not work out real well and go back to my speed 7 or even only speed 6 disc. Problem is, I had gotten from using the slower discs for practice to it being almost a religion. Once I took some time to learn a fast disc, it has really helped me.

One big revelation I had was with maybe the easiest high speed driver there is to throw in the Vulcan. I had gotten my pro Leopard out before well beyond 320' but only a handfull of times. Working with the Vulcan, I was at a course where it seems like there were a few holes marked at 350' and they were feeling like I was starting to be capable of making some ace runs at them as that seemed to be right where my Vulcan would get to but much more relaxed. It has really revolutionized my game and even the lines I put my slower discs on.

Still. I wonder if I would have as much luck throwing something like the Vulcan deemed to be very flippy if I had not spent all that time driving the slower discs or learning how to drive my Magics. It all comes back to using that discing down for practice but remembering to try other things here and there for score.

 

[craftsman]

Techo, I don't believe that the use of slow discs hurt your form with hsd's.
If you're doing everything "correctly" it should be about the same- yes, hs's need more nose down but you should be applying that to slows anyways...

 

[Technohic]

Yeah, but nose angle entails a lot and needs various degrees and angles depending on desired flight line.

 

[CwAlbino]

Yeah, but nose angle entails a lot and needs various degrees and angles depending on desired flight line.

Uh, what? Nose down, all the time. Whether you are throwing a hyzer, anhyzer, straight shot, or extreme distance lines. All require nose down.

It actually doesn't entail a lot. Correct grip and keeping the disc centered in your forearm if you curl it back is pretty much all you need to do (in other words, on the same plane as your forearm).

 

[BrotherDave]

I can only disc up so far b/c my fingers are short. Thanks for making me cry, you jerks.

 

[CwAlbino]

I can only disc up so far b/c my fingers are short. Thanks for making me cry, you jerks.

 

[Technohic]

Uh, what? Nose down, all the time. Whether you are throwing a hyzer, anhyzer, straight shot, or extreme distance lines. All require nose down.

It actually doesn't entail a lot. Correct grip and keeping the disc centered in your forearm if you curl it back is pretty much all you need to do (in other words, on the same plane as your forearm).

I was more referring to the location of the nose for different lines. Like assuming RHBH, it would be more to the right when throwing a turnover and more to the left when throwing a hyzer and not necessarily a full OAT free throw. Maybe I am wrong but it seems to work a lot better to get the leading part of the disc out of the apex of the flight down.

 

[CwAlbino]

I was more referring to the location of the nose for different lines. Like assuming RHBH, it would be more to the right when throwing a turnover and more to the left when throwing a hyzer and not necessarily a full OAT free throw. Maybe I am wrong but it seems to work a lot better to get the leading part of the disc out of the apex of the flight down.

The nose is the front of the disc, it won't change depending on the shot. If the disc is turning over, the front of the disc is not slightly to the right of directly forward

The nose of the wing is the part of the disc which hits the air first, so it must be along the directional velocity vector. Since the disc is axi-symmetric, it makes no sense to talk about sides, only axes - the fact that the disc is spinning does not affect it's aerodynamic characteristics, only its responses to pitch and roll inputs.

Now if you are just having problems just getting the angles of release correct and keeping the planes, that has nothing to do with nose down. The problem with throwing an anhyzer for most people is simply early release, never knowing when the disc is actually going to eject from the hand.

 

[Technohic]

The nose is the front of the disc, it won't change depending on the shot. If the disc is turning over, the front of the disc is not slightly to the right of directly forward




Now if you are just having problems just getting the angles of release correct and keeping the planes, that has nothing to do with nose down. The problem with throwing an anhyzer for most people is simply early release, never knowing when the disc is actually going to eject from the hand.

The front of the disc itself changes based on the direction it is going, though.

What I'm getting at is forward to the disc, not forward from your standing position. I'm not sure we are speaking the same language.

 

[Technohic]

Here. This is what I am getting at.

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/dgr/resources/articles/angles.shtml

III. Utilizing Nose Angles in Conjunction with Hyzer Angles

Not all shots are meant to be thrown on the line connecting you to your target. Depending upon which line you wish to take and the disc flight path that you desire, you will often need to throw the disc off line and with varying degrees of nose angle. In reality, the true nose angle of a throw is whatever angle the leading edge of the disc is in the direction it is traveling. For example, with a hyzer angle, the nose down line is slightly off to the left of center. Similarly, the nose up line is off to the right of center. For anhyzers, reverse this relationship.

 

[CwAlbino]

The front of the disc itself changes based on the direction it is going, though.

What I'm getting at is forward to the disc, not forward from your standing position. I'm not sure we are speaking the same language.

If by direction you mean initial direction. The nose won't change direction mid flight, it remains constant. (However just speculation, I think if at any time the turn or fade velocity exceeds the initial directional velocity, the nose will in fact change. That, or an outside force changes it, like glancing off a tree)

For each one of these throws, if you were to pick a point in the flight line the nose would always be pointing directly up/north/toward the top.

 

[craftsman]

Dave, I'm unsure if you're joking or serious, but ima assume serious since I used to think the same.
Let me just say that I'm 5'6" with lil mexi-irish hands. I found that focusing on my grip in a loose relaxed state instead of tight, really helped me get past that mental (but what I thought was physical) block.

 

[CwAlbino]

Here. This is what I am getting at.

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/dgr/resources/articles/angles.shtml

Truthfully, I'd go so far as to say that post is completely wrong. In fact, you want "flat" at all times. Any shot you want to be executed can be done with the flat release (which is what I would call nose down) in relation to the throwing planes.
This is flat

Notice that in this thread, he never mentions "nose down grip" or "nose up grip". In fact, there is a definite "incorrect disc placement" marked under the nose up picture.

For sweeping hyzers, you will want the disc to fly nose up. The nose up orientation on these throws is to the right of center.

I love throwing sweeping hyzers, and you can most definitely throw them without nose up. Nose up causes the disc to stall faster because there is more surface area of the disc making contact with the air. There are uses for nose up and I can explain*. The sweeping hyzer is essentially a hyzer flip that never quite makes it to flat. If you are throwing nose up to throw a sweeping hyzer, then you are robbing yourself of distance and probably using the wrong disc as well.

# Nose Down – An angle of release where the front edge of the disc is lower than the back edge of the disc. This angle will generally make discs fly less overstable.
# Nose Up – An angle of release where the front edge of the disc is higher than the back edge of the disc. This angle will generally make discs fly more overstable.

Both of these have to do with speed and how the air is affecting the disc. If you are somehow able to achieve nose down, you are probably gripping it wrong. The same directional velocity is occurring but you cannot get the spin out of the "nose down" that he describes. Since the spin is slowed, the disc will react more understable.

Nose up is the easy one, the bottom of the disc is catching all the air making the disc slow down faster. Since it's directional velocity is slowing but the spin is not, the forward momentum is not able to create enough pressure to turn the disc over.






*Use for nose up:
As a touch shot, nose up can be used for what is called an elevator shot. Using an understable disc, throwing nose up and with pressing down with the thumb to create OAT (opposite of wrist roll) you can make the disc go out and up, then drop down. This is generally an ultimate frisbee shot but is excellent for upshots that you want to just land flat.

 

[Technohic]

I get what you are saying and agree. I think I am not on the right page with what I am trying to describe and not sure how to articulate it. Basically, on a throw like a hyzer flip, released about the same way, I guess I am referring to where if you get it to flip up and over then no problem, but if you dot quite make it, you leave your disc exposed and it stalls out.

I guess I am assuming both throws have the same initial nose angle, but the one that makes it over before slowing down avoids the stall out and I am assuming because the side of the disc which is the nose has changed based on trajectory, but it could be something else.

 

[CwAlbino]

I get what you are saying and agree. I think I am not on the right page with what I am trying to describe and not sure how to articulate it. Basically, on a throw like a hyzer flip, released about the same way, I guess I am referring to where if you get it to flip up and over then no problem, but if you dot quite make it, you leave your disc exposed and it stalls out.

I guess I am assuming both throws have the same initial nose angle, but the one that makes it over before slowing down avoids the stall out and I am assuming because the side of the disc which is the nose has changed based on trajectory, but it could be something else.

Release angles/velocity/spinspeed are all going to be different. Not getting enough speed on the disc or too much hyzer release angle are two things that would cause it to stall before it turned over completely.