Ice hockey slapper and disc golf bh throw

[Fris-beer]

I can shoot a hockey puck relatively hard and it looks good on video. The rotation is very good and balanced, my shoulders and arms are loose and the position feels very much loaded. The sequence is very good as well, crush the can, very compact brace and boom the stick comes lagging behind. The rotation is very fast end explosive. I can shoot a puck 75 and even 80 mph. I shoot with the left hand down.

Then I try to throw a frisbee and theres no from the ground up sequence what so ever. How can I possibly translate some of that slap shot power to a bh throw? The weird thing is I can throw a 350 forehand pretty effortlessly but cant shoot a puck at all right hand down. One handed throw to the side where a right handed guy pretty much never throws anything is very very very hard.

 

[Brychanus]

You can transfer ground forces/lag in the similar way through a hip hinge in the plant leg, but the posture, balance, and swing plane is different. I also imagine that the pressure of the feet directly on the ground/in shoes is different than in skates.

You can look at One Leg Drill from seabas22 to work on getting similar leverage from the plant leg. His Inside Swing drill will help get you proper alignment to leverage from the gorund.

 

[Fris-beer]

IMO Garrett Gurthies throw looks a lot like a hockey shot. Not 1:1 but there are alot of similarities. GG streches and loads up from his center of gravity and comes down hard. Most pro throws are more horizontal(left side streches towards the target and right side away from it). In GG's throw it seems that his left side is pushing up and right side is pushing down.

 

[Fris-beer]

You can transfer ground forces/lag in the similar way through a hip hinge in the plant leg, but the posture, balance, and swing plane is different. I also imagine that the pressure of the feet directly on the ground/in shoes is different than in skates.

You can look at One Leg Drill from seabas22 to work on getting similar leverage from the plant leg. His Inside Swing drill will help get you proper alignment to leverage from the gorund.

The hockey shot feels like I'm going forward and not sideways. I assume a frisbee throw needs to be sideways. But then again I think of a baseball swing. I'd only turn away from the very last second. It's so frigging hard when the object weighs 175 grams and is thrown one handed. That messes up everything. I tried the one leg drill and I understand I need to get down on my right ass cheek ass as much as possible but I can only manage to get some feeling of sequence if my right foot points directly towards the target. And I think thats not how it should be in a frisbee throw

 

[Brychanus]

Yes, generally planted ~90 degrees to target to start and translating the shot more laterally rather than 'forward'. The line of play in developed form may end up a bit past 90 degrees but most people wouldn't recommend starting practice that way.

Due to the light disc problem, I had to practice a lot swinging a weight in a pendulum motion into the backswing before I could feel like I was using the squat/weight shift and getting it to separate my center of gravity against the backswing and sling the disc forward. If you swing the weight into the backswing on a vertical plane, then swing it forward past the brace leg using your weight dropping into and then leveraging the ground in the plant stride it might help. SW22 likens it to a skater doing a pump in a half pipe. Also compressing into a "pogo-like" leg and decompressing to lead the swing.

I see the hockey similarity to GG you mention. The same fundamental action is there in the more lateral forms, but it might be easier to find with more vertical forces for you. Don't be afraid to experiment with that. E.g., I actually prefer more vertical force as a big guy, but for everything but the biggest shots my current form has become more lateral over time with a lower hop since it's helping me keep some things a little tighter while I'm learning.

 

[sidewinder22]

Blake_t has always likened "Swedish" technique to a hockey slap shot with the most power potential. I associate it with more vertical shoulders. GG, Brinster, Astrom, Eveliina, Henna, PP, KJUSA, Feldberg, Lundmark are good examples.

 

[seedlings]

Andrew Fish holds onto the disc with both hands. Perhaps incorporating this would give a better hockey feel?

 

[navel]

Tried thinking about the throw differently?
Your lower arm is the hockey stick. You need to feel the heavy weight of that arm and how to leverage it it like a hockey stick. Move your hinge up to your elbow. Get that elbow hinge moving away out from your body like your hands and the head of the stick at impact. When that feels right your body will most likely know how to brace for it, just like when you play hockey.

 

[BruisedOoze]

I'd be wary of drawing too many quick parallels outside of the brace and rotation with a slapshot when it comes to the arms. What would be our off arm in a backhand is incredibly important in a slapshot and its power. The 'backhand throwing arm' helps pull the stick, whereas the rotation helps the 'off-hand' push the stick into the ice and provide the fulcrum for flex.

This may be at the route of the translation issues?

 

[Fris-beer]

Tried thinking about the throw differently?
Your lower arm is the hockey stick. You need to feel the heavy weight of that arm and how to leverage it it like a hockey stick. Move your hinge up to your elbow. Get that elbow hinge moving away out from your body like your hands and the head of the stick at impact. When that feels right your body will most likely know how to brace for it, just like when you play hockey.

Yes I have tried everything. I have to swing my both arms to feel the weight. Hockey is easy. The stick is heavy and you need pretty much everything from your body to put a move on that heavy puck. I tried to smash a one handed tennis bh as well but couldnt do it properly. Any suggestions for drills to feel the weight of the lower arm?

 

[Fris-beer]

I'd be wary of drawing too many quick parallels outside of the brace and rotation with a slapshot when it comes to the arms. What would be our off arm in a backhand is incredibly important in a slapshot and its power. The 'backhand throwing arm' helps pull the stick, whereas the rotation helps the 'off-hand' push the stick into the ice and provide the fulcrum for flex.

This may be at the route of the translation issues?

Yes the right arm is fairly passive on a slapper. I think I got it down what sidewinder said in the swedish badfish video. I have to use my left shoulder as a counter weight for the elbow hinge. Push it down and back. And that can be done by raising the off arm shoulder up. I actually do a similar counter weight motion unconsciously on my forehand throws! But I really struggle with what the throwing arm should feel like and do. Theres no feeling load or tension when swing it.

 

[navel]

Yes I have tried everything. I have to swing my both arms to feel the weight. Hockey is easy. The stick is heavy and you need pretty much everything from your body to put a move on that heavy puck. I tried to smash a one handed tennis bh as well but couldnt do it properly. Any suggestions for drills to feel the weight of the lower arm?

It's not that easy to give good enough tips on how to make your hockey skills translate to disc golf without seeing your form right now. I am not much of a hockey player myself either. I will give it a shot though.

My guess is that you may be collapsing your throwing arm into your chest like you would for a hockey slap shot. You need to change that. You can however use the off-arm motion with success. It's a bit unconventional nowadays, at least in the US. SW linked the Swedish motion. Maybe you'll get a feel for the throw if you try that?

Think about how you use your shoulders in hockey. I'm guessing the feeling is the same, just a bit more lateral in disc golf. Do what you normally do but imagine the puck to be a a bit out in front of your target line (maybe?). Hit the puck with your elbow instead of your club head. Think of the imaginary line from your right shoulder and lat to the left hand that you use when you play hockey. Move that imaginary line so that it connects to the right elbow on the one end instead of the left hand. Are you following?

Can you see the differences and similarities in these videos? Your lower arm is basically the hockey stick.





Do the motions you are used to and get the feeling that you are powering the shot with your off-arm, but:
1. Put your throwing arm (with the shoulder as well!) straight out from your chest in your regular position.
2. Relax into an athletic stance. Relaxation is the most important part to get the heavy feeling.
3. Swing through with your off arm and focus on the heavy feeling from your shoulders/lats traveling all the way out through your arm. Remember the line out to the throwing arms elbow instead of going out the whole of the left arm.
4. Now focus on getting the angle between your chest and your upper arm to always be greater than 90 degrees. (Hugging someone, not hugging yourself.) The angle will compress and decompress when throwing but it should always remain greater than 90 degrees and open up more by itself. Don't try to fling it open.

The heavy feeling is relaxation, rhythm, timing etc. There isn't a fool proof short cut. You need to practice it. I would recommend SW's elephant walk drill.


These are just my top-of-mind thoughts and ideas. See if you find something that makes a connection with you.

 

[Fris-beer]

It's not that easy to give good enough tips on how to make your hockey skills translate to disc golf without seeing your form right now. I am not much of a hockey player myself either. I will give it a shot though.

My guess is that you may be collapsing your throwing arm into your chest like you would for a hockey slap shot. You need to change that. You can however use the off-arm motion with success. It's a bit unconventional nowadays, at least in the US. SW linked the Swedish motion. Maybe you'll get a feel for the throw if you try that?

Think about how you use your shoulders in hockey. I'm guessing the feeling is the same, just a bit more lateral in disc golf. Do what you normally do but imagine the puck to be a a bit out in front of your target line (maybe?). Hit the puck with your elbow instead of your club head. Think of the imaginary line from your right shoulder and lat to the left hand that you use when you play hockey. Move that imaginary line so that it connects to the right elbow on the one end instead of the left hand. Are you following?

Can you see the differences and similarities in these videos? Your lower arm is basically the hockey stick.





Do the motions you are used to and get the feeling that you are powering the shot with your off-arm, but:
1. Put your throwing arm (with the shoulder as well!) straight out from your chest in your regular position.
2. Relax into an athletic stance. Relaxation is the most important part to get the heavy feeling.
3. Swing through with your off arm and focus on the heavy feeling from your shoulders/lats traveling all the way out through your arm. Remember the line out to the throwing arms elbow instead of going out the whole of the left arm.
4. Now focus on getting the angle between your chest and your upper arm to always be greater than 90 degrees. (Hugging someone, not hugging yourself.) The angle will compress and decompress when throwing but it should always remain greater than 90 degrees and open up more by itself. Don't try to fling it open.

The heavy feeling is relaxation, rhythm, timing etc. There isn't a fool proof short cut. You need to practice it. I would recommend SW's elephant walk drill.


These are just my top-of-mind thoughts and ideas. See if you find something that makes a connection with you.

Great response! Thank you! I will go through it properly later.

Here's a small reflection of a drill I did. I did some experimenting with a floorball stick and a lacrosse ball. I put the sort of heavy ball on the blade of the stick and tried to throw it to the backhand side. I think the stick and ball combo demonstrate the weight of the lower arm and disc combo you described. With two hands on the stick it felt like I just need to rotate forward and push the stick forward with my left arm to throw the ball. Thats pretty much the feeling of a soft slap shot. Then I tried to do the same thing one handed. Completely different feel and mechanics to put a move on the ball.

 

[Fris-beer]

I dont know if this is a relevant question but how much distance in a bh throw is the violent crush of the can and core torque? I feel like the harder I shoot a puck the faster and more violently I do the weight shift. Its more sudden so to speak. Is it the same thing with a disc? I threw a putter close to 300 with everything feeling pretty much ****. I feel I could rip it so much harder if I could apply similar ground force and counter weight as in a slap shot. I dont know if thats the way to do it. Guys out there throwing 350 feet putter shots so smoothly. No violence needed.

 

[Brychanus]

I dont know if this is a relevant question but how much distance in a bh throw is the violent crush of the can and core torque? I feel like the harder I shoot a puck the faster and more violently I do the weight shift. Its more sudden so to speak. Is it the same thing with a disc? I threw a putter close to 300 with everything feeling pretty much ****. I feel I could rip it so much harder if I could apply similar ground force and counter weight as in a slap shot. I dont know if thats the way to do it. Guys out there throwing 350 feet putter shots so smoothly. No violence needed.

I think I'd reply that the ground force transfers abruptly in the weight shift, but the swing should be smooth overall. The weight shift is the "violent" part of the throw in the sense that several times your body weight will be absorbed in the plant stride (I keep sharing this nice vid from SW22):


That one's a full tilt McBeth drive. You can see in this moderate (but still far) shot he's a bit lighter on his feet with a less "crunchy" shift at the end:


Watch how "crunchy" KJUSA's plant is (imaging him crushing a can under that final step) on this max distance shot

And then look at Gurthie's on the left in this one. Notice GG even comes off the ground completely for a moment as he decompresses against the ground. Eagle is still crushing the can w/ his full weight suddenly, it's just less obvious since he has more horizontal force.

All of them are getting a smooth-yet-abrupt weight shift, and the mechanics throughout the swing are very smooth (from thousands and thousands of reps).

 

[sidewinder22]

(I keep sharing this nice vid from SW22):

Think you are missing something in the tag.

 

[sidewinder22]

 

[Brychanus]

Think you are missing something in the tag.

Re-attempting to link long/slow vs compact/sudden weight shift

 

[Fris-beer]

Yes that Mike Malaska video is exactly what I mean. He controls the speed of the club with the intensity of the hip/core action. Now I need a golf stick lol. Hockey is hard to compare because it requires so much more force as you have to use significant core and upper body force to bend the stick against the ground. I did the elephant walk drill with a 8 kg and that gave me a nice heavy feeling of the swing and body orientation. Still struggling to find that feeling of load/tension in the arm though! Guess I'm thinking about the arm too much. Its very hard to understand that the center of gravity has to be low when theres no feeling of weight. Should the arm be rotated inward or outward(supinated or pronated) to feel the weight. I can occasionally get it done with a fh throw. Everything feels connected from the legs to the tips of my fingers.

 

[Spectacledbear]

If we used 300 gram discs, or atleast discs with substational weight, everyone would have good form.

Not a single sport out there has it to where you need to spend years learning to feel the weight of an object. Its kinda funny.