Improperl marked OB lines...

[Dan Ensor]

The OB rule uses the word "line" which does not have an end unlike a "ray" or "line segment". So based on that, the OB line in this example continues indefinitely so the disc is OB. We don't seem to have this same interpretation problem with mando lines which rarely are marked too far from the mando object. And yet, everyone accepts that the line continues indefinitely.

Then it looks like the entire next hole is OB.

 

[notroman]

Then it looks like the entire next hole is OB.

Come on, now.

 

[Dan Ensor]

Come on, now.

Me come one now? Chuck come on now.

I can clearly see that the line couldn't extend indefinitely, because that hole would be unplayable.

 

[notroman]

Me come one now? Chuck come on now.

I can clearly see that the line couldn't extend indefinitely, because that hole would be unplayable.

What hole? The one in the original post? It would totally be playable.

As for other holes - they have their own lines. It's not a hard concept to grasp. Just like the mando on hole 5 is not in play by the time you tee off on 6 otherwise you might as well go to the drop zone on 5, right?

 

[Dan Ensor]

What hole? The one in the original post? It would totally be playable.

As for other holes - they have their own lines. It's not a hard concept to grasp. Just like the mando on hole 5 is not in play by the time you tee off on 6 otherwise you might as well go to the drop zone on 5, right?

Landing in 4's parking lot playing 5 doesn't mean the parking lot was in bounds. Nothing said that a players book said it was a hole specific ob.

 

[tampora]

One very good reason why an OB line cannot simply end is that MS-Paint picture above. Image a ton of discs in an arc around the one being shown. There's no way you could say with any certainty which discs were in bounds and which were out. As the discs get further from the hanging-OB point, the problem gets worse and worse.

 

[tampora]

 

[JoakimBL]

OB is not a line, it's an area. Unless the area is defined in reference to the line, then there actually is no OB on that hole, unless the line is wider than the disc.

 

[ScottyLove]

Then it looks like the entire next hole is OB.

Incorrect. OB is for a specific hole, not the course. The next hole has nothing to do with this one. In ball golf, we called this "inside ob" meaning an OB line between holes. I used play a course where over line going one way was OB, but coming back the other was not.

If on the next hole, you hit a tree and bounced back beyond the line, you would not be OB.

 

[ScottyLove]

Thanks for the answer Chuck. The guy who said it was extended indefinitely was pretty sure, but said, "I've always been told" and couldn't really point to a specific rule.

My original point is correct... There is a simple way to avoid the confusion by connecting lines or painting arrows.

 

[Dan Ensor]

Incorrect. OB is for a specific hole, not the course. The next hole has nothing to do with this one. In ball golf, we called this "inside ob" meaning an OB line between holes. I used play a course where over line going one way was OB, but coming back the other was not.

If on the next hole, you hit a tree and bounced back beyond the line, you would not be OB.

According to what rule?

Out-of-bounds: An area designated by the Director from which a disc may not be played, and within which a stance may not be taken. The out-of-bounds line extends a plane vertically upward and downward. The out-of-bounds line is part of the out-of-bounds area.

A disc is out-of-bounds if its position is clearly and completely surrounded by an out-of-bounds area. See 802.02.B for determining when a disc in water or foliage has come to rest.
B. The out-of-bounds line is part of the out-of-bounds area.
C. A disc that cannot be found is considered to be out-of bounds if there is reasonable evidence that the disc came to rest within an out-of-bounds area. In the absence of such evidence, the disc is considered lost and play proceeds according to rule 804.05.
D. A player whose disc is out-of-bounds shall receive one penalty throw. The player may elect to play the next throw from: 1. The previous lie; or,
2. A lie that is up to one meter away from and perpendicular to the point where the disc last crossed into out-of-bounds, even if the direction takes the lie closer to the target; or,
3. Within the designated drop zone, if provided.

Those options may be limited by the Director as a special condition only by prior approval of the PDGA Tour Manager.

E. The out-of-bounds line represents a vertical plane. Where a player's lie is marked from a particular point within one meter of the out-of-bounds line, the one-meter relief may be taken from a point upward or downward along the vertical plane.
F. If the thrower moves the disc before a determination regarding its out-of-bounds status has been made, the disc shall be considered out-of-bounds.

I don't see anything that would indicate OBs are hole-specific.

I'm with Joakim; there is no OB defined by that line, as it does not define an area. Unless the line is wider than a disc.

 

[mashnut]

According to what rule?
I don't see anything that would indicate OBs are hole-specific.

I don't have a citation, but in practice hole-specific OB is used all the time. A ton of courses have "on or over" OB rules about sidewalks or roads that run through the park where the OB is a mirror image for holes on either side of the path or road. Your interpretation would make that pretty tough to implement.

 

[JC17393]

I don't have a citation, but in practice hole-specific OB is used all the time. A ton of courses have "on or over" OB rules about sidewalks or roads that run through the park where the OB is a mirror image for holes on either side of the path or road. Your interpretation would make that pretty tough to implement.

Why can't there be both? Sure, if we're talking parallel holes where one fairway is OB for another hole, you're correct. But what about parallel holes that don't have a boundary between them but one of the holes has an OB on the opposite side? Say it's hole 1 with the OB lake on one side, then hole 2 runs parallel on the other side. Does hole 2 have to have a sign or a caddy note specifying the lake is OB in order to call an errant throw that crosses 1's fairway into the lake as OB? Or is the lake OB for any shot that finds it no matter what hole the player is supposed to be playing?

Or take the OP example of a marked OB (set aside the debate of continuing lines for a moment). If a throw from another tee manages to find the marked area somehow, would the player get to play from the area or is he OB? If it's hole specific, it would be easy to argue he's in bounds, no? Does that seem correct? I mean if it was OB on one hole, it must be OB for a reason that doesn't go away just because the thrower is on a different hole.

 

[Disczealot]

I'm with Joakim; there is no OB defined by that line, as it does not define an area. Unless the line is wider than a disc.

It wasn't clear to you that the OB line in question marks the area left of the OB line as the "OB area"?

I agree with pretty much everything JC has said on this one.

I would actually go as far to say that the TD intended that the OB end at the end of the line since if it continued it would run right under the basket.

If the TD intended OB to go through the left side if the basket you would think he would have made it very clear to the players or marked it as ob.

Lets assume the line was meant to continue, how many people in that tournament were "OB", pin high 5 feet to the left, and finished the hole without even thinking about ob?

Edit: unless the orange rectangle isn't the basket. Regardless, I agree with JC.

 

[Dan Ensor]

It wasn't clear to you that the OB line in question marks the area left of the OB line as the "OB area"?

Cultural norms dictating an assumption doesn't define an OB.

 

[Steve West]

The only authority on what is OB is the Tournament Director. You can't prove what the TD was thinking by looking in the rules or making assumptions.

The first post got it right: if you aren't sure, play provisionals.

 

[ScottyLove]

The only authority on what is OB is the Tournament Director. You can't prove what the TD was thinking by looking in the rules or making assumptions.

The first post got it right: if you aren't sure, play provisionals.

This came up today at the Charlotte Amateur... not by play, but by discussion. Rules sheet says, "Hole 10 - No OB", but guy says, "Well, unless you get a really bad kick and roll away down that hill across the other fairway and past the OB line into the creek."

I said, "Nope. The sheet clearly states that this hole has no OB."

You never make assumptions. The rules my buddy Dan is quoting give guidance on hole to adjudicated the OB defined. That's the keyword right there... the OB must be defined. Then you apply the rules accordingly.

 

[DavidSauls]

This came up today at the Charlotte Amateur... not by play, but by discussion. Rules sheet says, "Hole 10 - No OB", but guy says, "Well, unless you get a really bad kick and roll away down that hill across the other fairway and past the OB line into the creek."

I said, "Nope. The sheet clearly states that this hole has no OB."

You never make assumptions. The rules my buddy Dan is quoting give guidance on hole to adjudicated the OB defined. That's the keyword right there... the OB must be defined. Then you apply the rules accordingly.

This is the kind of thing that keeps TDs awake at night. Or, at least, keeps this particular TD awake.

I run events on a course with lots of O.B. and special rules. And, I mean, LOTS. And they're all different. So we try very hard to make sure everything is marked clearly, and the rules sheet is phrased very specifically so that there's no ambiguity. And then spend every waking moment, and most of the sleeping ones, worrying that someone will manage to do something we've never thought of.

At one time we had a tee in a fenced O.B. area. The rule sheet said that if your throw didn't make it over the fence, it was a stroke and re-tee. Someone managed to throw a low shot that went under the fence, which we didn't know was possible.

Another hole said the "creek and beyond" is O.B. We didn't foresee that if someone yanked their drive about 60 degrees offline---and really juiced it---they would hit a spot where the creek goes underground through a pipe. As far as I know, no one had ever come within 100' of that spot before.

I made the mistake of wording an island hole to say that if a disc doesn't land on the island, you go to the drop zone. I knew what I meant. You know what I mean. But, of course, I should have said that if it doesn't "come to rest" on the island. Sigh.

I don't cover the rules in the players meeting, but I always remind the crowd to use provisional.

That said, the TD mistake described in the original post of this thread is pretty glaring. I've seen it before, though perhaps not quite that bad.

 

[JoakimBL]

It wasn't clear to you that the OB line in question marks the area left of the OB line as the "OB area"?

I agree with pretty much everything JC has said on this one.

I would actually go as far to say that the TD intended that the OB end at the end of the line since if it continued it would run right under the basket.

If the TD intended OB to go through the left side if the basket you would think he would have made it very clear to the players or marked it as ob.

Lets assume the line was meant to continue, how many people in that tournament were "OB", pin high 5 feet to the left, and finished the hole without even thinking about ob?

Edit: unless the orange rectangle isn't the basket. Regardless, I agree with JC.

It's only "Clear" that you are OB on the other side, if you are either close to the line, or far away from the ends of the line. But the problem is, OB doesn't just end. How does it just end? The line ends, but the OB continues in one direction or the other. And if it isn't made clear in one way or the other, how do you decide which direction. The only logical and practical thing to assume is that it continues. We don't have any way to properly measure and estimate a 90 degree angel, especially if the disc is relatively far away from the line.

I'm pretty sure the green "dot" is supposed to be the basket, and the orange rectangle might be a teepad, but that may be wrong. In either case, it doesn't change the fact that the rules defines OB as an area, not a line, nor does it mention anything about the TD's intentions, or how to assume a line continues when it stops. It's poorly defined OB, and it doesn't matter how much we discuss it, there really isn't any definitive answer.

 

[PhattD]

It's only "Clear" that you are OB on the other side, if you are either close to the line, or far away from the ends of the line. But the problem is, OB doesn't just end. How does it just end? The line ends, but the OB continues in one direction or the other. And if it isn't made clear in one way or the other, how do you decide which direction. The only logical and practical thing to assume is that it continues. We don't have any way to properly measure and estimate a 90 degree angel, especially if the disc is relatively far away from the line.

I'm pretty sure the green "dot" is supposed to be the basket, and the orange rectangle might be a teepad, but that may be wrong. In either case, it doesn't change the fact that the rules defines OB as an area, not a line, nor does it mention anything about the TD's intentions, or how to assume a line continues when it stops. It's poorly defined OB, and it doesn't matter how much we discuss it, there really isn't any definitive answer.

:clap::clap::clap: This. Play a provisional and ask the TD.