Is good form inevitable?

[Widdershins]

A recent article in the New York Times brings up an interesting question: Is good form inevitable?

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/08/29/finding-your-ideal-running-form/?ref=nutrition

The article deals with runners but does it matter? With diligent effort do most people figure it our on their own?

 

[JR]

Not necessarily. It's always good to have an outside eye to give a different perspective.

 

[sidewinder22]

Relate the article to disc golf and most novices will "improve" on their own. They might master a frisbee airbounce or they learn how to torque monkey a Boss 300' on their own. :roll: To master a disc golf throw is certainly not inevitable. I like how Scott Papa says, "you about to en devour in one of the most awkward things you have ever done, and that is throwing a golf disc."

Age is probably the largest determining factor of natural good form. The young kids tend to pick up things easier just watching and mimicking. The older a person gets, I think they become less self aware and need more visual reference of what they are actually doing. I think most people are shocked when they see themselves throw for the first time on video and would never believe some of things they are obviously doing wrong otherwise. I know it was an :shock: when I first saw myself throw on vid.

 

[Deliveryguy]

I know for my self there is no way.I had so many bad habits engrained in my form for the first 1 1/2 to 2 years I was strong arming and way tense through my entire throw.It took many articles and advice from a local pro(hes rated over 1000) to get me to beleive I was doing it wrong.Ive gotten better no thanks to my self,Im pushing 380-400 ish just about on demand with my farthest flyers,but wouldnt have a chance at that with the way I had engrained in me.

 

[CaddyJeff]

I think once you have a "technically" good throw, you develop your own style of it. In the article the women already knew how to run, they just needed to figure out how their body could do it at a faster, more efficient pace. Unfortunately for some, myself included, start on the analogy equivalent of the women starting by only being able to crawl or possibly manage a brisk walk. I see it all the time, some guy who just never really learned how to throw a disc correctly, so he throws with a crazy amount of anhyzer or something to make up for his lack of throwing strength. While its not "technically" perfect form, he may have learned to play with it and it just works for him.
So in a way, yes, BETTER form is inevitable, but good is a stretch.

 

[garublador1]

A recent article in the New York Times brings up an interesting question: Is good form inevitable?

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/08/29/finding-your-ideal-running-form/?ref=nutrition

The article deals with runners but does it matter? With diligent effort do most people figure it our on their own?

That article is specific to running. It clearly does not apply to disc golf, ball golf or probably hundreds of other sport specific techniques.

 

[keltik1]

I got to say the nay-no my damie.

Running is an instinctual, natural movement. Throwing a disc is not.

I would say injury is more inevitable in our sport than a perfect form. I do tend to think about Climo since he's been around but he also seems to have an interest in Freestyle. Some of those techniques may have carried over, who knows. Maybe he had someone giving him pointers way back in the 80's/90's.

 

[Beetard]

Good form in anything is possible to develop on your own if you are really good at focusing on and judging whether something feels right or not and can change the way you perform a motion at will because you are open minded, don't believe in set right and wrong, and can ignore/avoid building faulty muscle memory from reps done the wrong way.

I needed help with my running form, I didn't figure it out on my own, but I could feel enough to know something was off.

I started off as a heel striker but learned from sore hips and IT bands that this was the wrong way.

On my own I switched to forefoot landing by flexing my ankles and my hip issues got better, but I soon developed achilles problems.

Finally I got a form analysis from a pro who explained that I needed shorten my stride and land with my feet under/behind my chest instead of out in front of me.

This change took hours of practice and I'm still trying to master it, but it naturally causes midfoot landing which has reduced strains and injuries from running.

If, like me, you didn't figure out things like proper running form on your own, you've probably got no chance of learning to throw like a pro on your own because you haven't trained yourself to be perceptive of your body.

 

[soupdeluxe]

Hey All
There is no way no how I would have figured out what I need to do on my own. Even when I read and watched tons of material I still did not figure it out. I was missing the most important thing, buying in to what is preached on these forums. Slow in to fast out, sounds good but unless you actually do it... So even with all the help in the world I still did not move anywhere closer to good form for quite a long time. I think without this wonderful resource I would have accepted my limitations and played with or through them. I like the game too much to quit. That said I think the day I get all the shots down perfectly and there is no drama or some degree of pressure to make the next shot good I will probably hang up my bag. Looks like I will be playing a while.
SD

 

[cubeofsoup]

Isolate someone from all other disc golf, give them discs and let them try and figure it out. There is a chance they have a natural knack for it. But my bet is they won't reach their full potential unless they naturally can figure out biomechanics and the physics of disc flight.

Every single person plays so different that I'd like to know what "good form" in terms of disc golf is. Is it elements of a throw that everyone, given different styles, will have? Is there an "ideal" form that everyone should be attempting to emulate?

Take two world champs and one of the hottest young players...Feldberg, Avery and Wysocki,. To me, their throws look wayyy different, so which has the "best form"? (all my questions are not rhetorical, please correct me if I'm wrong, I crave knowledge )

 

[Moseley]

Every single person plays so different that I'd like to know what "good form" in terms of disc golf is. Is it elements of a throw that everyone, given different styles, will have? Is there an "ideal" form that everyone should be attempting to emulate?

Take two world champs and one of the hottest young players...Feldberg, Avery and Wysocki,. To me, their throws look wayyy different, so which has the "best form"? (all my questions are not rhetorical, please correct me if I'm wrong, I crave knowledge )

You kinda answered yourself there - if you break down their form, you'll se a lot of similarities; they get a powerful disc pivot, they accelerate throught the hit, have a good follow through etc. But as a whole, their form looks different.
Feldberg and Jenkins are good examples; Jenkins is closer to the right-pec/bent arm that's taught here (his whole form looks to me to be built around a wish to use a lot of power, though). Feldberg, on the other hand looks smoother (still has tremendous acceleration through a much lower hit) and his arm can be almost straight through the throw. Analyze their throws, though, and you'll see more similarities - weight shift, timing, aiming/angles, footwork, consistency etc.

 

[Hegemony]

Mark,

Have you met guys who have been playing DG regularly for 10+ years that can't seem to get past a plateau in the mid-MA2 level or lower?

I'm willing to bet the answer to this question is yes, and thus the answer to the question you posed is no. I'm also willing to bet you've met guys in your travels that are under 35, in general good health and can't throw 300ft.

The article states that they improved from where they started, but in the world of running 36+ minute 5k times (where the women all ended up) are not "good."

 

[mark12b]

Reminds me of Alan Cooper's stuff about "perpetual intermediates" -- people naturally move past the beginner phase due to enthusiasm and wanting to not suck, but becoming an expert (and staying that way) is really tough, so most people stay in the middle somewhere.

http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2004/10/defending-perpetual-intermediacy.html

 

[Widdershins]

Mark,

Have you met guys who have been playing DG regularly for 10+ years that can't seem to get past a plateau in the mid-MA2 level or lower?

I'm willing to bet the answer to this question is yes, and thus the answer to the question you posed is no. I'm also willing to bet you've met guys in your travels that are under 35, in general good health and can't throw 300ft.

The article states that they improved from where they started, but in the world of running 36+ minute 5k times (where the women all ended up) are not "good."

To hegemony and all the others who answered the topic with "no", good form is not inevitable, please realize the question was not whether GREAT FORM is inevitable, merely good form. And even then, admittedly, graduation from weak form to good form depends mostly on exposure to good form in others and a desire to get better.

Look at the lifers (long time players) who fail to get to a 900 handicap rating. I'm guessing 900 is an attainable goal for any guy under 50 with a modicum of athletic skills or decent motivation, is this fair? Anyway most of them play with the same group of buddies week after week, year after year, who are also lifers and also not very good.

I play in a lot of local leagues and watch the progress of many new players. Because my leagues also attract many established players in the Pro to Am 1 range, newbies get to see a lot of good shots and good techniques. This leads to good form through mere mimicking of what they see. I actually think it is difficult for a player to regularly play with good players and not become good himself. Or herself, of course.

 

[Deliveryguy]

I guess I misunderstood what you ment by good form.When I was throwing 300 I did not consider that good form,and to me great form is at least half if not full hitting it (500+).Compared to a nube I guess 300 would be considered good form but consider the place you posted the question with us form/distance geeks.

 

[keltik1]

Mr. Ellis I believe your definition of form is slightly different from what most of us focus on in this forum. We tend to focus on driving/distance form rather than general form.

even to this end I still say no. Inevitability implies that it will happen without any outside influence. The scenario you describe above implies that newer players are influenced by better/experienced players. I have a friend that started DG casually when we were in college (more than 10 years ago). He has remained a casual player and has no desire to do anything else with this sport. He can only throw about 200 feet. He has had no outside influence or desire to improve. he only likes to have fun with friends. I only picked up this sport 5 years ago but through desire and influence I'm a "competitive player" in comparison to my friend. In comparison to other players I still suck the oil. but that's a different story.

 

[Widdershins]

Mr. Ellis I believe your definition of form is slightly different from what most of us focus on in this forum. We tend to focus on driving/distance form rather than general form.

even to this end I still say no. Inevitability implies that it will happen without any outside influence. The scenario you describe above implies that newer players are influenced by better/experienced players. I have a friend that started DG casually when we were in college (more than 10 years ago). He has remained a casual player and has no desire to do anything else with this sport. He can only throw about 200 feet. He has had no outside influence or desire to improve. he only likes to have fun with friends. I only picked up this sport 5 years ago but through desire and influence I'm a "competitive player" in comparison to my friend. In comparison to other players I still suck the oil. but that's a different story.

This forum does seem to focus on gaining maximum distance through form. Maybe obsessively so. While I recognize the value of gaining distance, I view good form as providing two more important benefits: One is allowing a player to score effectively. The other is avoiding injury. Pure power is just a component of scoring and nowhere near the most important component, even if it is the most exciting.

It would be interesting to plant baskets and leave discs with a tribe of humans cut off from the rest of the world and see what they did with them.

 

[Agricolae]

"...900 is an attainable goal for any guy under 50..."

Dang, Mark says I'm already screwed. Get off my lawn, Mr. Ellis!! <waves cane>

 

[Widdershins]

"...900 is an attainable goal for any guy under 50..."

Dang, Mark says I'm already screwed. Get off my lawn, Mr. Ellis!! <waves cane>

Hey Oldtimer, I was setting the lower end of the bar, not the upper. There are Senior Grand Masters ( 60+) rated over 1000. There is still hope for us.

Besides the way you wave that cane proves you still got game.

 

[money 21]

i think people will get better over time by learning thing that work but getting to good form I am not sure about. when i first started i would throw a shot at 3/4 arm between a flick and a tomahawk with a viper. it would make a huge s curve and go about 250'-275'. form was horrible but i was fairly successful with it and more then likely would have continued to do this if someone hadn't taught me propper fh form.