[Innova] Last non mod disc that Innova produced?

[Discette]

I absolutely adore the PD and have for years. I had heard a story that Jussi wasn't happy with the original mold, and the Anhyzer top (not using molding terms, I know) was born from that. Does this mean it was Dave only behind the entire development of the mold?

Thank you for the information you have provided. I love this topic.

Dave designs and develops the discs for Discmania. Jussi asks for disc models with certain qualities and Dave does his best to design the discs that Jussi wants.

 

[CFaberlle]

Can someone with the knowledge explain to me why the variances between runs. I often see references to "First Run is more OS", "Second Run is no good", "Third Run that" and so on....

Does the actual mold change during these runs or just the plastic density/characteristics????

 

[Discette]

I can dig what Meulen said about the terminology of insert/spacer. Wherever "spacer" came from,.....

It appears one source of the "spacer" rumor is from a post by Leopard at DGReview in February of 2009. Whoever that is?


Players don't need all the details of how discs are made or how they are made differently to enjoy playing this sport. They just need to go out and have fun throwing plastic discs at metal targets.

Don't overthink it.

 

[Meulen]

I can dig what Meulen said about the terminology of insert/spacer. Wherever "spacer" came from, I think of it as a conceptual wing shape element rather than the formal name of a mold part that just magically adds height to the edge of the mold but nowhere else. We don't talk about the stripper and cavity of a disc, we talk about the wing and the shoulder and the nose and the spacers... shapes, not mold parts. However the molds are constructed, there are shapes that are reused and matched/modified with offsets to construct various models. Those are plain to see as they leave flashing, and you can directly compare things like Sidewinder moldings with narrow or fat noses. I'm interested in the shapes and how their variations affect flight, like 1000x more than I'm interested in how each company constructs their molds.

"Spacer" is not a shape. If we're talking shapes, "spacer" should be replaced with blunt or flat. The PDGA provides a rim configuration number, why don't we compare those? The great thing is that everyone has different interests, and some people are extremely interested in how each company constructs thier molds.

Can someone with the knowledge explain to me why the variances between runs. I often see references to "First Run is more OS", "Second Run is no good", "Third Run that" and so on....

Does the actual mold change during these runs or just the plastic density/characteristics????

Most likely the mold isn't changing. There have been some cases where the original release does not perform as expected and a slight tooling modification is made. Factors that contribute to run to run variability include the molding process itself, environmental conditions (temperature and humidity), the position of the discs when cooled, cycle time, material lot variations, mold temperature, colorant, and probably another 5 factors I can't list off the top of my head.

 

[Meulen]

May be more trouble than it's worth, but this info (and actually some pages of other threads over the last couple years) have interesting info about molding discs and should be its own thread vs. buried in this one...?

I think there is value in putting all of this info in one place. I spent a lot of time explaining material differences a couple years back. I'll start to work on this over the next few weeks and create additional graphics as necessary.

 

[CFaberlle]

Most likely the mold isn't changing. There have been some cases where the original release does not perform as expected and a slight tooling modification is made. Factors that contribute to run to run variability include the molding process itself, environmental conditions (temperature and humidity), the position of the discs when cooled, cycle time, material lot variations, mold temperature, colorant, and probably another 5 factors I can't list off the top of my head.

Thanks Meulen! You are the Man!!!

Interesting, so if the disc cools upside down then we get the flat tops??? (It's probably not that simple)

I was not aware that all these played a role between runs. Consistency is of big concern then between runs. I wonder how all these big companies go about controlling all these variables....

 

[tbird888]

Interesting, so if the disc cools upside down then we get the flat tops??? (It's probably not that simple)

Not going to say an outright 'No', but I'll say 'Not Always'. In the case of the second run of Cryo Backdrafts (trying to prevent the wing from falling/sagging as it cooled), it created a Tumbtrac of sorts rather than flattening the flightplate as a whole.

 

[Moose33]

I actually really like the second run liquid Backdrafts they are closest to flat and have the little thumbtack thing.

I think a lot of Destroyer users would love one if they tried it.

 

[tbird888]

I actually really like the second run liquid Backdrafts they are closest to flat and have the little thumbtack thing.

I think a lot of Destroyer users would love one if they tried it.

Not judging the mold. Just responding to a question. With the dome they were more comfortable than the first runs.

 

[ZAMson]

It appears one source of the "spacer" rumor is from a post by Leopard at DGReview in February of 2009. Whoever that is?


Players don't need all the details of how discs are made or how they are made differently to enjoy playing this sport. They just need to go out and have fun throwing plastic discs at metal targets.

Don't overthink it.

Agreed on paragraphs 2 and 3.

I can't remember if "spacer" existed in the DGR hive mind before me using it. I got stripper/core/cavity from John. Mill's GM taught me to look for mold tweaks on incoming runs and I feel like spacer was one of his terms. It's an effective concept for analyzing wing shapes, which is fun to overthink.

 

[Toro71]

I think there is value in putting all of this info in one place. I spent a lot of time explaining material differences a couple years back. I'll start to work on this over the next few weeks and create additional graphics as necessary.

That's awesome.

IIRC, somewhere in that original, epic Prodigy thread, the discussion eventually drifted into molding issues, and you had some quality input, but finding those will probably be like finding a needle in the hatestack at this point.

 

[Discette]

Can someone with the knowledge explain to me why the variances between runs. I often see references to "First Run is more OS", "Second Run is no good", "Third Run that" and so on....

Does the actual mold change during these runs or just the plastic density/characteristics????

...Most likely the mold isn't changing. There have been some cases where the original release does not perform as expected and a slight tooling modification is made. Factors that contribute to run to run variability include the molding process itself, environmental conditions (temperature and humidity), the position of the discs when cooled, cycle time, material lot variations, mold temperature, colorant, and probably another 25 factors I can't list off the top of my head.

FTFY

Again, nailed by Meulen.

 

[Meulen]

FTFY

Again, nailed by Meulen.

Haha, fair enough. That was just the simple explanation.

 

[Meulen]

That's awesome.

IIRC, somewhere in that original, epic Prodigy thread, the discussion eventually drifted into molding issues, and you had some quality input, but finding those will probably be like finding a needle in the hatestack at this point.

More like a needle in a landfill.

 

[Ender175]

Thanks Meulen! You are the Man!!!

Interesting, so if the disc cools upside down then we get the flat tops??? (It's probably not that simple)

I was not aware that all these played a role between runs. Consistency is of big concern then between runs. I wonder how all these big companies go about controlling all these variables....

I always assumed flat topped vs domey had more to do with how much the plastic shrinks as it cools down.

 

[Stardoggy]

I always assumed flat topped vs domey had more to do with how much the plastic shrinks as it cools down.

My educated guess is it has more to do with cycle time and environment.

 

[DanJon]

In regards to the difference between 1st runs and subsequent runs.... When Innova or any manufacturer does a first run of a certain disc, it's in a small number. Any run after that is probably done in much larger numbers.

With any product its easier to have QC and variance issues when you're talking 1,000 vs. 10,000 units.