It's not about any of that. Statistically it seems skewed. I would have guessed that there were 3 women on here total.
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Laura Nagtegaal 2019 Amateur World Champion FA40
- Thread starter DiscFifty
- Start date
It's not about any of that. Statistically it seems skewed. I would have guessed that there were 3 women on here total.
gingerandhoney
Birdie Member
It's actually one of the kinder things I've read, whilst not necessarily "agreeing" with me playing in gender-protected divisions. And you don't HAVE to agree, I am not asking for that.
I thank you for your kind words.
And as for me going up the competitive ladder.
Follow my live scores @ HOFC / NT Finals in Appling, Georgia next month.
Or better still. Come and actually see me play. I'd love to actually talk
https://www.pdga.com/tour/event/38694#FPO
In most skill sports you're competing directly against someone else, so it's hard to quantify how much change in skill level came with transitioning. Disc golf is one of the few skill sports where you are competing against a course with a single metric (rating) that everyone is measured against, and not directly against other competition.
Obviously there is more to your skill level than just your transitioning, and a sample size of one is pretty small. However I think it would still be interesting to see how your rating changes compare to the expected difference for competitive male and female players.
gingerandhoney
Birdie Member
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My power and stamina did. In a negative manner. I did lose a significant amount of distance, and stamina (I typically last 32 holes nowadays (ie. last 4 holes on a 2x18 day, I am physically dead) and explosive shots, like overhead, I actively stay away from them, to spare myself the embarrassment. I just can't clear trees like that, and I won't even try to "just go over the damn trees" any more (I never really could anyway, but a 30/40ft tree or so, I could somewhat handle).
See my previous "on the flat" 380/390ft drives, which was mostly a "is that all you've got, pffft?" box for a not-age-protected (19-39) of 40+ rated man.
I now barely shoot over 300/310ft anymore, and that puts me in the "eh, not bad at all" box among not-age-protected (19-39) of 40+ rated women. And that is nothing compared to the women who actually throw far, they throw 400ft+. I don't expect to be showcased in those "women who crush" videos that are doing the rounds nowadays.
The one skill where I did improve, is my mental game. I am calmer, less "caveman" if you will.
That is most visible in me having improved my putting percentage, and in my doing less "stupid attempts to try and execute 1100-rated shots to get out of the rough".
As far as rating changes go, I don't think there is any specific rating development for either male or female.
Any studies that have been done are focused on "how ratings change over time for age-protected divisions".
A man doesn't jump up or down in rating more than fenale, or in a different curve.
How the start of the curve is, is exclusively decided by "when - in your disc golf career - do you join PDGA". And I think the tapering off at the end of the curve is mostly similar. Neither McBeth or Pierce are expected to just jump up or dpwn 10 from now on, they'll pretty much just keep on creeping forward (+1 / -1) , until they decide to hang up their bags.
The only thing we can all see, is that a man's peak will typically be higher (about 90/100 points, it seems?) than a woman's. (see McBeth+Wysocki vs Allen+Pierce).
That obviously makes me, as I've jumped from the men's rankings to the women's rankings, "place" higher on the respective ladder, in this moment. My "just average" rating among men is a "eh, that's nice" among women.
With my 888, I'd be tied for 19,737th spot in the men's ranking among the 39,074 who have ANY rating (ie excluding "0" ratings). That puts me in the top 50th percentile on that scale.
In the women's raking, my 888 puts me tied 149th out of 2,928 with ANY rating, and that puts me in the top 5th percentile on that scale.
How my position on the women's scale will change over time, I don't know.
If I used my pre-transition rating (averaged 900 in the 12 months pre-transition) on these current scales (isn't fool-proof but is usable enough), I'd have been top 41st percentile in the current men's rankings, and top 3rd in women's.
Any changes to your rating are due to you performing against the pool of players you are in. It is to a lesser amount based on your skill level (but as you learn new tricks/control, or as your body gets weaker as you age, your ceiling changes).
One important consideration to make with regards to round ratings is this:
In Europe, there typically is only one layout at an event, in North America there typically is a shorter tee for women and/or the extreme ends of age-protected divisions, and/or lower amateur levels. Ie. in Europe, the women's rounds' scores are compared to that of the men's, in the USA that isn't necessarily so.
My power and stamina did. In a negative manner. I did lose a significant amount of distance, and stamina (I typically last 32 holes nowadays (ie. last 4 holes on a 2x18 day, I am physically dead) and explosive shots, like overhead, I actively stay away from them, to spare myself the embarrassment. I just can't clear trees like that, and I won't even try to "just go over the damn trees" any more (I never really could anyway, but a 30/40ft tree or so, I could somewhat handle).
See my previous "on the flat" 380/390ft drives, which was mostly a "is that all you've got, pffft?" box for a not-age-protected (19-39) of 40+ rated man.
I now barely shoot over 300/310ft anymore, and that puts me in the "eh, not bad at all" box among not-age-protected (19-39) of 40+ rated women. And that is nothing compared to the women who actually throw far, they throw 400ft+. I don't expect to be showcased in those "women who crush" videos that are doing the rounds nowadays.
The one skill where I did improve, is my mental game. I am calmer, less "caveman" if you will.
That is most visible in me having improved my putting percentage, and in my doing less "stupid attempts to try and execute 1100-rated shots to get out of the rough".
As far as rating changes go, I don't think there is any specific rating development for either male or female.
Any studies that have been done are focused on "how ratings change over time for age-protected divisions".
A man doesn't jump up or down in rating more than fenale, or in a different curve.
How the start of the curve is, is exclusively decided by "when - in your disc golf career - do you join PDGA". And I think the tapering off at the end of the curve is mostly similar. Neither McBeth or Pierce are expected to just jump up or dpwn 10 from now on, they'll pretty much just keep on creeping forward (+1 / -1) , until they decide to hang up their bags.
The only thing we can all see, is that a man's peak will typically be higher (about 90/100 points, it seems?) than a woman's. (see McBeth+Wysocki vs Allen+Pierce).
That obviously makes me, as I've jumped from the men's rankings to the women's rankings, "place" higher on the respective ladder, in this moment. My "just average" rating among men is a "eh, that's nice" among women.
With my 888, I'd be tied for 19,737th spot in the men's ranking among the 39,074 who have ANY rating (ie excluding "0" ratings). That puts me in the top 50th percentile on that scale.
In the women's raking, my 888 puts me tied 149th out of 2,928 with ANY rating, and that puts me in the top 5th percentile on that scale.
How my position on the women's scale will change over time, I don't know.
If I used my pre-transition rating (averaged 900 in the 12 months pre-transition) on these current scales (isn't fool-proof but is usable enough), I'd have been top 41st percentile in the current men's rankings, and top 3rd in women's.
Any changes to your rating are due to you performing against the pool of players you are in. It is to a lesser amount based on your skill level (but as you learn new tricks/control, or as your body gets weaker as you age, your ceiling changes).
One important consideration to make with regards to round ratings is this:
In Europe, there typically is only one layout at an event, in North America there typically is a shorter tee for women and/or the extreme ends of age-protected divisions, and/or lower amateur levels. Ie. in Europe, the women's rounds' scores are compared to that of the men's, in the USA that isn't necessarily so.
Huh? In disc golf you are competing against other players, not the course. Rated rounds are directly related to the performance of all the players playing the same course configuration, on that day. That's why the same score with different weather/course conditions can result in different rated rounds. Then there's the ratings factor, a pool of higher rated players tends to yield higher rated rounds compared to a pool with lower rated players. Even though that particular subject has been highly debated.
Having even just one shorter/alternate tee for the FPO division allows ratings to be calculated solely against the FPO division which can impact FPO rated rounds more positively.
With all due respect to Laura, it would be interesting to see the impact socially/professionally of a much younger player, say someone in their 20's who transitions and plays FPO. Especially if the player has a high rating and starts climbing the elite ladder.
gingerandhoney
Birdie Member
No offense taken at all.
With all due respect to other 40+ players, I know very well that I have already peaked, athletically speaking. If anything, my transition, which medically started at age 42, sped up the decline attributed to progressing age.
Still, the physiological age someone transitions would be completely irrelevant, with regards to making any social/professional waves.
Although, for them, I hope that my winning AmWorlds was the tsunami, when it comes to the wrath and vitriol suffered. I bolstered myself to withstand all of the vitriol that I 'knew' was coming, in the hope that those who have yet to transition, or those who have transitioned, but are/were not strong enough yet/anymore to withstabd the vitriol, would have an easier time.
Regardless of whether I have helped raise acceptance about this topic with my winning AmWorlds, I have certainly made it a topic that is being discussed, and as such helped raise awareness and visibilty.
But it is my hope, from a romantic idealist's and "don't be an <BLEEP>"'s point of view, that through being as open as I can about my transition, with specific first-hand details you'd never ever know otherwise, I may have helped some people who were "on the fence" to err on the side of acceptance rather than ostracision, even if reluctantly so, with "I disagree for reasons X and Y, and think that mpre research is needed, but I'll accept the current reality.").
The only thing that will really make a difference in the disc golf community, is whether that person would be of noteworthy disc golf skill level prior to transition.
No one talked, or will talk, about their fears of an 800-rated 19yo male player transitioning.
Everybody screamed bloody murder at the hypothetical situation that Paul McBeth (or exchange for Feldberg/Schultz/Climo, all being 40+) would transition.
gingerandhoney
Birdie Member
CAN, but it can ALSO affect negatively. Like you said yourself regarding player pool deciding ratings, there is no guarantee that women would invariably benefit (with regards to round ratings, which would then affct player ratings) from having their own pool.
Smigles
* Ace Member *
I still see two sides to this whole story.
One is the personal level. You are feeling better now, and that is great. More true to yourself, i am all for that. It's amazing that we have the possibililty nowadays from a tecnical view but also that some societies (not all, yet) are accepting you as you wanna be. If you are happier that way, that's great.
But the other question is that of integrity of womans sports. You are not in a position where you transition and blow the entire womans field out of the water. Others are.
Rachel McKinnon became world champion after transitioning. Hannah Mouncey is just ridiculous, look at photos, she is like a head taller than all her opponents. Laurel Hubbard won gold medals left and right and the other women competing complained how unfair it is. There are more and more of these cases coming up.
You focus very much on the personal side and how great it is for you. You keep claiming how ridiculous the idea is for somebody to undergo such a transformation just for some gold medals. I am not saying the athletes i mentioned above just transformed for winning, but they ARE winning lots and lots after their transition.
As you said before, you went from a top 50% male to a top 5% woman while actually getting worse physical abilities like distance and stamina. Imagine you started this whole process as a top 5% or even top 1% male. In a sport that probably pays more money than disc golf. With professionals actually depending on that income from tournament wins.
I just think you dont really wanna see this side of the story. I see you very strongly emphasising the personal aspect. But you have to see the reality that many of us who dont know all the medical details and the personal stories of the individuals involved, all we see is the gender bender meme...
Welcome! Thanks for joining the thread. I have really appreciated reading this, and learning a few things. I currently play FPO, but could play masters. I would love to have the chance to play with you. I'm sorry that you have been inundated with hate and vitriol regarding all of this, but wanted to show my support. Maybe one day the disc golf gods will smile upon us, and we will get to play together.
gingerandhoney
Birdie Member
Thank you! I'd love to.<3
Pro Worlds is in Utah next year, just saying. I live about an hour from the courses.
gingerandhoney
Birdie Member
I absolutely DO know and accept and see THAT side of the story exiats, and could potentially happen for real.
I am not saying anything against the likelihood of that happening.
There IS, one day, going to be an elite level disc golfer who transitions.
I am just categorically refusing to accept the worst case scenario that this would happen SOLELY because of that player wanting to have a chance at winning in a gender-protected division. That's just not how transitioning works.
Rachel, Hannah, Laurel, me, and the other (openly or not) transgender people; try asking them (at gun point, if you think they'd not be honest enough if you simply asked them) why they transitioned.
Do you really think that any of them transitioned BECAUSE of improved athletic opportunity?!?!?!!?
All I - and several others in this thread and others - have stated time after time, is that the likelyhood of a (sup)top male athlete in ANY sport would transition JUST to win medals in a gender-protected division, is beyond unimaginable.
But I can't and won't blame you for thinking that.
For those "not in the know", it indeed seems as simple as "John says he wants to wear a dress, and is then allowed to play with Mary and Lisa".
Please take the word from a first-hand experienced person that it simply does not work like that.
First off, there are way too many negative side effects against transition in general, that will outweigh against the "yay, I now won this medal"...
Even just looking at the amount of vitriol and hatred I won for what is ultimately a world title at an event that is ultimately only "opportunity" based, not "merits" based (bring on the hate for that comment, I stand by that statement) heavily outweighs the joy of having actually won that title.
I don't know numbers, but I think it's in the range of 50-100 negative comments for every positive comment I got for having won.
And even then, I only went to AmWorlds to celebrate my transition having come to an end. I didn't care one single bit if I'd finish first or last.
And even, if that person would take all these negative side effects for granted.
* guaranteed physical health risks
* possible mental health issue due to social and relational ostracision, possibly ending in that person taking their lives.
* financial implications (wage gap, if employment even continues post transition)
ridicule
* physical abuse (check how many transgender women get murdered for being transgender women; I'd really be surprised if it's not already being used in court cases as a defense "sorry, your honour I killed that her because I was temporarily insane, when I found out she is transgender")
etc...
... the system is still considered a 'gate-keeping' system, where you actually need to "prove" through extensive psychological evaluation that you are indeed suffering from gender dysphoria, before you get the green light to actually start transition.
After that green light, you'd need to continuosly (12+ months), and uninterrupted maintain your low T levels either through chemical suppression, or through surgery (for which you only get green light if you: A. took hormone replacement therapy for 12+ months, AND B. have permanently lived as your desired gender for 12+ months), before your gender reclassification would even be considered for review by the PDGA.
My transition, from the moment I had the courage to look at myself in the mirror, and accept I am transgender, to the moment I got the green light from the PDGA, was 31 months, and that is considered a FAST transition path.
It's preposterous to even entertain the thought that for instance a 980-rated (only ever so slightly higher than Paige & Catrina, but light years away from Paul & Ricky) male player who'd never have a chance to win ProWorlds in MPO, would be able to just fake their way through physch eval AND take for granted all the negative aspects of transition, to be able to beat Paige, Eveliina, Catrina, etc. at ProWorlds.
gingerandhoney
Birdie Member
If my financial situation allows (see just-mentioned financial repercussions of transitioning, I am close to bankruptcy due to not being hired), I will definitely look into play ProWorlds or ProMasters next year.
I have, as of last Sunday lost my meal ticket for AmWorlds, due to taking cash ($22) at an event, and I feel I belong in FP40 rather than in FPO, but I would definitely love to look into coming to Utah! <3
gingerandhoney
Birdie Member
Exactly BECAUSE of that, I am so incredibly open about my transition. Short of actually posting my blood works data, or posting photos of my underwear situation (don't worry, I won't), I am trying to maintain as calm a composure as humanly possible, in kindly sharing details that you would not possibly know otherwise, and in kindly and carefully debunking myths and accusations against transgender people in general, and me in particular.
I want to use the hatred and negativity that I knew would come from this in a positive manner, as a possibility to help raise awareness and visibility for the topic itself.
And ultimately, hoping for more acceptance.
And as such, having helped make for a smoother ride for those who are not yet, or no longer, strong enough to deal with the hatred regarding this topic.
Only when deliberately - despite me repeatedly asking to stop that - misgendering me, do I get a bit more stern and direct. But even then, remaining civil.
Ironic detail: (give or take 4-5, maybe) I got as many "I can't believe you remain so patient and civil through/despite all the hatred against you" as I got "congratulations on your win"
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I can't imagine all of what you've been through, but keep on going girl!! It sickens me that you have so many obstacles to overcome, just for being you. I'm used to being the minority in disc golf, but you've got me beat for sure. Lots of love.
gingerandhoney
Birdie Member
I definitely am!!! <3
Here is the thing though, despite all the hardship I endured prior to transitioning (I had censored myself to be no more or less than a soulless robot pretending to be male) and during/after my transition.
I am told often to have become a pleasant person to be around, so socially there were only positive aspects, but I lost my fiancee and she took our pets with her, my son won't see me, my brother has cut all ties, I am close to financial bankruptcy, and I had to deal with the negativity surrounding my title...
My transition is also the best thing to ever have happened to me. And ever WILL happen to me.
I took the Red Pill, when I looked at myself in the mirror, August of 2016. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQ1_IbFFbzA
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Smigles
* Ace Member *
No i dont think that.
What I do think is that (independent of motivation for transition) in some cases the individuals just are too strong for a womans competition and that this can have a negative impact on womans sports in general.
Individual rights and freedom of expression and being who you want is important. Yes absolutely. But I also think that the interest of millions of women who want to do organised sports are important.
Womans sports allready suffer from way lower viewcounts and therefore ad revenue and ultimatively money in the sport. Even if the entire transgender topic is regulated and the transgender athletes take hormone tests and have hormone levels that are within the defined borders, there are certainly some people who will not be convinced.
gingerandhoney
Birdie Member
"you" is used by me in the broader sense of the word, not aimed at Smigles. English... :/
"just too strong for a woman's competition", possibly so, but that would then start the slippery slope again, where Michael Phelps would need to be excluded from swimming for yet another (Olympic) medal, because his body secretes way too little lactic acid, or moving Jeremy Koling to another division, because he has too much wingspan.
Devil's advocate, has any other FA40 event in disc golf history ever garnered as much attention as 2019 AmWorlds? Do you (broader sense again) know any other 1st (mine) or 2nd (Kerri French, many say she's the legitimate winner) place finishers at FA40 AmWorlds' names?
When talking about women participation in sport, and in our specific case, disc golf. Do you (broader sense again) think that transgender women are what is hurting female participation?
The PDGA, and specifically the Women's Committee, think there's way other things at play there. And they focus on doing what they can to attract, engage, and retain women to the sport specifically.
That activity does NOT focus on "making sure that transgender women can not disenfranchise women from competing"
And historically, the female participation grade of PDGA membership is constantly hovering around 8%. 92% are men. That is NOT, I repeat, NOT, due to transgender women.
I will hazard a guess, and between the open and closeted transgender women, there may currently be as many as 10-20 in disc golf.
I personally know of 10, including myself, the other 9 shall remain anonimous.
My and other transgender women's participation in gender-protected divisions has far less of a negative impact on women disc golf participation than the lack of tiolets at courses, max weight super overstable discs in player packs, commenting on women's looks rather than their skills on the fairway, a heavy focus on men's coverage over women's coverage (giant leaps in the right direction are made, though), constrictive caps on women's divisions, cat-calling, courses that are rarely suitable for women to compete. Etcetera.
Sarah Hokom is one of the most vocal players about how to make disc golf more suitable for women, and is making things happen. She is not alone in this, but she will take any opportunity to make it known to the TD and other invested parties how to make the event more woman-friendly.
How many men, outside of the "Laura is not a woman, she should not have been allowed to play in gender-protected divisions" are openly advocating FOR a better male-female ratio in membershio/participation, by doing positive things FOR women, rather than ostracising transgender women?
If men were indeed as taken with women participation as they claim they are (at least when reading all the comments on my winning that title), don't you think that membership numbers and women participation numbers would be much higher than they are now?
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