Ledgestone Insurance Open

[Vonbeezy1]

What course did FPO play today and from what tees?

 

[DiscLoser1]

What course did FPO play today and from what tees?

Westwood Shorts, DGCR SSE of 46.1.

That's what is listed on the Ledgestone website; not 100% if that schedule is up to date.

 

[Vonbeezy1]

Westwood Shorts, DGCR SSE of 46.1.

That's what is listed on the Ledgestone website; not 100% if that schedule is up to date.

If they did play Westwood shorts, a 50 is around 1020 rated- I played an A tier their.

 

[dscmn]

Can we just get rid of the optional re-throw rule already?

 

[DiscLoser1]

Delete

 

[Vonbeezy1]

The entire Lake Eureka temp course needs to go. Just awful.

But that's said every year...

Apparently that's not the only course being complained about. Check out the Facebook page

 

[teemkey]

If they did play Westwood shorts, a 50 is around 1020 rated- I played an A tier their.

Yeah, seems like the TD entered the wrong course data. FPO & MPM are both in Pool C. For MPM a 50 is rated 1019 -- still a great round for Holly.

 

[corin_brown]

holly finley shot a 50 rated 1099 today?

At first, for a second, I read this that she posted a total score of 1099 for a round rating of 50, lol!

My kingdom for a strategically placed comma.

 

[corin_brown]

I didn't care for condescending explanation by terry and steve after that. Where are these forums steve ask, terry didn't want to say well its on our live streaming video, so made a dumb post office joke. folks on the chat were civil and constructive and i believe that situation was not handled correctly by terry, the tds, mcbeth, or his cardmates. anytime you have this circus golf where you change the rules and have unnecessary ob you are asking for trouble. and for steve to imply that if you say the word provisional you will not be stroked is ridiculous .

Yeah, I caught that too.

But I give Terry a pass on this one - he's got so much stuff going on during a broadcast between trying to call, produce, research and spot (basically the work of 5 TV professionals) a live sporting event while simultaneously communicating with Jon et al and THEN he has to figure out what the hell was going on with #provisionalgate AS it's happening WHILE trying to explain what he knows to the audience, which isn't much. It seemed like a circus to the audience and I'm sure it was even more confusing from Terry's perspective.

However, I don't give Steve Dodge a pass for smugly dissing the "forums." He should know better. I like the Vibram Open. I like Maple Hill. I like a lot of aspects of the DGPT. But if during a broadcast of a DGPT event, where 1500 fans are voluntarily watching and listening, Steve Dodge can so casually dismiss all the pro disc golf fans on "forums", that shows that he's got some gaps in understanding about social media, the business of sports and event production, marketing, publicity and promotion. All that's fine, of course. He can do what he wants. Maybe he had a brain fart. I just thought it was a weird comment coming from someone who, presumably, wants as many people as possible to watch his events.

 

[Notverygood]

Tldr

Cliffs?

From what I've gathered, there was an OB question that mcbeth took advantage of, Nikko getting frustrated, Holly crushed it today, temp course sucks, somebody made inappropriate comment about forum users.

Did I miss anything?

 

[onemilemore]

Yeah, I caught that too.

But I give Terry a pass on this one - he's got so much stuff going on during a broadcast between trying to call, produce, research and spot (basically the work of 5 TV professionals) a live sporting event while simultaneously communicating with Jon et al and THEN he has to figure out what the hell was going on with #provisionalgate AS it's happening WHILE trying to explain what he knows to the audience, which isn't much. It seemed like a circus to the audience and I'm sure it was even more confusing from Terry's perspective.

However, I don't give Steve Dodge a pass for smugly dissing the "forums." He should know better. I like the Vibram Open. I like Maple Hill. I like a lot of aspects of the DGPT. But if during a broadcast of a DGPT event, where 1500 fans are voluntarily watching and listening, Steve Dodge can so casually dismiss all the pro disc golf fans on "forums", that shows that he's got some gaps in understanding about social media, the business of sports and event production, marketing, publicity and promotion. All that's fine, of course. He can do what he wants. Maybe he had a brain fart. I just thought it was a weird comment coming from someone who, presumably, wants as many people as possible to watch his events.

You had an argument for this before any comments he may have made on the broadcast (which, admittedly, I did not see). One area the DGPT can improve on tremendously is in marketing and social media. They've gotten better, but still a long way to go.

Not to pit this as one tour against the other, but have we seen anything of this kind of nature at a DGWT event? Most of the rules are consistent between courses, courses have all been similar in nature, etc. I can't think of any rulings snafus at any of those events, but it's been a long season and I may be forgetting something.

 

[corin_brown]

If he was unsure of where to go (apparently he wasn't, but I was arguing based on the idea that he was) and disagreed with the group's decision as to where he should go, he's entitled to play out from both spots, record both scores, and have the TD rule after the fact. That his attempt to do so was interrupted by the arrival of an official that rendered a decision before that process was completed doesn't mean the player wasn't still entitled to that process.​

I'm not even sure who's right and who's wrong and who's on whose side. But this^ is a good point.

If McBeth played out his provisional set of throws to completion of the hole and also played out the hole from the DZ to completion of the hole, it would have been a lot less confusing.

The chaos started as soon as he stopped playing his provisional. What if he had parked his provisional throw off the tee instead of throwing it OB, to short left field again? You better believe he would have finished that provisional. And he would have raised a stink if he was told that he was required to have played from the DZ all along. He would have pointed to 803.06 and he'd have a case.​

 

[corin_brown]

Did I miss anything?

Jon said his wife asked him this morning, "you're broadcasting AGAIN, today?!?!?"

 

[@iDiscGolf]

You had an argument for this before any comments he may have made on the broadcast (which, admittedly, I did not see). One area the DGPT can improve on tremendously is in marketing and social media. They've gotten better, but still a long way to go.

Not to pit this as one tour against the other, but have we seen anything of this kind of nature at a DGWT event? Most of the rules are consistent between courses, courses have all been similar in nature, etc. I can't think of any rulings snafus at any of those events, but it's been a long season and I may be forgetting something.

Well it is the dgwt but its still the ledge stone open, right? I guess they just take existing tournament events and package them into a "tour"? Add some carnival games and booya...

Anyway, didn't the ledge stone open last year have a bunch of ****ty rules and TD blah blah during and after too?

 

[onemilemore]

Well it is the dgwt but its still the ledge stone open, right? I guess they just take existing tournament events and package them into a "tour"? Add some carnival games and booya...

Anyway, didn't the ledge stone open last year have a bunch of ****ty rules and TD blah blah during and after too?

This one is Pro Tour. Point I was making is that we haven't seen rules inconsistencies or the like at World Tour. But you are correct that Pro Tour took existing tourneys under its umbrella. Perhaps there will be more standardization in year two.

 

[corin_brown]

Not to pit this as one tour against the other, but have we seen anything of this kind of nature at a DGWT event? Most of the rules are consistent between courses, courses have all been similar in nature, etc. I can't think of any rulings snafus at any of those events, but it's been a long season and I may be forgetting something.

I think it's probably down to luck. Although DGWT has a few advantages built in when it comes to avoiding awkward rules incidents like today.

To be fair to the DGPT, so much of their series is broadcast live. It's much easier to paper over any wonky rules beefs when you only show 30 minutes of hand-curated action from each of your rounds, like DGWT does.

Also, aside from LaMi, DGWT events have been in faraway lands with hardly any American golfers involved, with much smaller fields, in much more controlled environments. There just isn't as much direct, real-time reporting of on-the-ground news from those tournaments and as a result, there just isn't as much buzz about anything that's happening in their tournaments.

As for DGPT & Steve Dodge's peculiar/naive approach to promoting their events, I'm not sure what to make of it. I guess I'll take your word that it's gotten better but to be honest, I haven't really seen it. I still didn't hear much online about when the Ledgstone was gonna be on. I know now to subscribe to the DGPT channel, so I get alerts, etc., and I saw Jon post the show times here, but the general message from DGPT is still muted as hell when it should be a carpet bombing campaign.

Steve Dodge definitely makes himself more than available for podcasts and traditional media, it seems - I guess he flew down to Charlotte specifically so he could appear on FRR and promote the Vibram, if I remember correctly. But today hasn't been the first time he's seemed willfully dismissive of the DGPT viewing audience and unconvinced of the necessity of having at least a baseline plan for social media when you're trying to promote a series of events to disc golfers and to the general public.

 

[@iDiscGolf]

This one is Pro Tour. Point I was making is that we haven't seen rules inconsistencies or the like at World Tour. But you are correct that Pro Tour took existing tourneys under its umbrella. Perhaps there will be more standardization in year two.

Yeah. That's what I meant, oops. But yeah, I actually think the pro tour is a little cooler/unique to the world tour. I like the angle of fun and event with a side of tournament... Id check one out, but I don't think there is a stop in the pnw?

Anyway. What I kinda meant to say is not with the "tours". But didn't ledge stone have a bunch of silly hoopla last years thread on rules and stroke and play and so on and so forth? That was the correlation I was attempting to make.

 

[cheese dog]

Anyway, didn't the ledge stone open last year have a bunch of ****ty rules and TD blah blah during and after too?[/QUOTE]

I was thinking about that today, and after hearing nikko exclaim profanity about the provisional(re tee) ruling, it all came back to me. Still a great event that i consider one of best on the calendar.

 

[araytx]

What fun this thread has become!

There seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding of sport here. A players job isn't to make posters on DGCR happy, it's to win the tournament. Paul is using the rules to his advantage and as long as he does that, good on him. He isn't the first nor the last to do so. If he is unclear on a point, or what's allowed, he is smart to take a provisional. Yep, he might spend five minutes trying to find the exact ruling, how stupid would that be? In a tournament players take whatever advantages the rules allow. This is why players take that meter when it puts them closer to the basket and say no thanks when it moves them away.

As an added bonus, if you use the rules and it pisses off your opponent, aka Nikko, at the same time... Double prizes! The notion that this means Paul is bad, evil, snail slime etc. Is too funny.

I will say, using players to decide if you can retee, bad idea. Read the rules, state your intent, if there is no descension, retee as a provisional.

Lyle, go back and read the first part of my post response #110 (and possibly the corresponding responses). I have no objection to players -- in any sport -- utilizing their knowledge of the rules to their advantage. I do the video on options following OB and I've had people comment and email me on the option to re-throw from the previous lie if you go OB when you're in the putting circle, calling it a "mulligan," that they don't like the rule, and some telling me that I need to stop doing vids because I don't know the rules.

My problem with what happened here is that it felt like Paul McBeth got a fundamental advantage that's not offered to other players, due to the way it went down and occurred. That is, he got to see the outcome of his throw before getting to decide if it counted or not. I don't think Paul is the evil empire for trying it -- not at all. If I could get away with that, I'd try it, too. I have strong suspicions though, that if the player making the exact same play was named A. Ray or Lyle Ross and not Paul McBeth, it might not have been ruled the same way. Or maybe if the player objecting had been a Nathan Sexton or a Nate Doss and not Nikko Locastro, maybe the same.

I'll go back to my assertion that he should not have been allowed a provisional re-tee, at least not with the cardmates's agreement which is what 804.06 B.1. seemingly requires. There was no question of IB/OB (they had spotters), there was no majority agreement it would save time, and no question of the status of his throw. Also, there also is no "appeal" of the card's decision under 804.06 B.2., because the card didn't make any decision other than to affirm the spotter's declaration that he was OB. Paul originally asked if he could re-tee instead of going to the drop zone because he wasn't a fan of that DZ. And Nikko implied (I don't know if he really said exactly) something like, "no you can't; it's DZ unless you're using it as your re-throw." Paul only said "provisional" when someone in his group said, "Hey Paul, call a provisional." That's why Nikko got ticked off. The only "reason" he has at that point for declaring a provisional is the proverbial, "I can call a provisional at any time" reason. (More on the meaning of "at any time" in a minute). If he does, then from my point of view he needs to play it out both ways -- because that's not a card agreement provisional, that's a "the player wants a provisional just because he can" provisional. Paul got to throw the re-tee THAT HE WANTED, then when it went OB a second time, got the TD to rule it was disallowed. I really don't think that Paul nor the TD would have done the same thing if his "provisional" re-tee gets over the fence to the circle or especially if he had aced it. Do you really see Paul's re-tee throw going in the basket for a 3p, and THEN having them calling the TD asking if he can re-tee instead of going to the drop zone, the TD saying no he can't and Paul saying "Oh, OK, no problem, I'll go to the drop zone"? Who in their right mind can see that going down?

I will continue to dispute SteveW's and SteveD's assertion that he "can't" re-tee because of the TD's ruling. The rule in 803.02 B clearly says at any time. The exact same "at any time" that Paul is using to get to throw his "provisional." Nothing ambiguous about that, so how it's disallowed I just can't seem to rationalize -- unless PDGA is now telling me that TD's have power over rules not specifically delegated to them.

I'm not even sure who's right and who's wrong and who's on whose side. But this^ is a good point.

If McBeth played out his provisional set of throws to completion of the hole and also played out the hole from the DZ to completion of the hole, it would have been a lot less confusing.

The chaos started as soon as he stopped playing his provisional. What if he had parked his provisional throw off the tee instead of throwing it OB, to short left field again? You better believe he would have finished that provisional. And he would have raised a stink if he was told that he was required to have played from the DZ all along. He would have pointed to 803.06 and he'd have a case.

YES ... because he called a provisional against what Nikko, on his card, said. Without card agreement he is calling an "appeal" provisional or a "cuz I can" provisional, and those need to be played out to completion.


ABSOLUTELY!!! YOU BETTER BELIEVE if that re-tee had gone to the circle he'd have a case, and I would have liked to have seen the TD rule that he can't re-tee then.

 

[araytx]

Aray, I feel the need to point out that you're quoting my posts out of order, which makes my arguments a lot more disjointed than they were. My understanding of what happened changed as details emerged.

Based on the most current information, McBeth should have never been granted a provisional in that situation. He was unquestionably OB and everyone involved, including himself, seemed to know that the course rules called for the next throw to be from the drop zone. To re-tee at that point required an optional re-throw that can not be done provisionally. It would seem he is deserving of two more throws added to his score on that hole (the re-throw and the OB penalty that resulted).

The TD/official got it wrong, and I wouldn't be surprised he got it wrong based on incorrect or incomplete information (just like I did).

I posted the wrong post to reply to in #119.

JC, I'm sorry about that. I think I was taking one or two comments at a time, and it was only later that I realized you didn't have all the info. Apologies coming your way. Now that you do have it all, I see that you see it pretty much what I see.