Male vs Female Skill Levels

[apparition]

After reading a post about how the PDGA should try to boost the numbers of women in the sport, it got me thinking on the way to work about the difference in skill level between genders/sexes. The only female I've played with is my wife, so I have no firsthand knowledge of professional females (other than watching videos of Catrina and Paige). How different is the skill level, really? Have men and women ever competed against one another in disc golf? Or is the skill gap too high, like in other sports?

 

[The Hammer]

Cat beats me on the reg.

 

[JC17393]

I think women can be and are just as skilled as men, in some cases more skilled. I think whatever limitations exist are physical rather than a question of skill. So I guess the question is whether physical attributes (height, strength, etc) are "skills" or not.

My feeling is if something can't be taught or practiced or learned, it's not what I'd classify as a "skill". Height can't be taught or learned. Physical strength can be improved, but for all people, the limits to which it can be improved varies significantly...that's the part that isn't a "skill", IMO.

In terms of disc golf, we have a rather gender-neutral measure with ratings, and the top women in the world based on ratings are clearly not at the same level as the top men, but they clearly can beat out a good deal of the men in the game. I don't think this is any different than what we see in any other sport. That doesn't mean women don't possess all the same game skills that the men do, but there is some other physical limitation that makes the difference.

 

[bluTDI09]

Is there a problem with the skill level other than the fact that there are not many women disc golfers and therefore not many women playing high skill level disc golf?

Elite women will never be able to reach the same level of play as elite men simply because of physiological differences, but that does not mean that they are less skilled. Here is an interesting article expounding on the obvious.

 

[dashiellx]

I do not think it is a matter of skill. I've watches some videos and seen the top women in the sport shape some lines just as well as any man. However, just looking at the Top 10 Pro Men v. the Top 10 Pro Women , you can see a drastic difference in ratings.

In the this past summer's Disc Outfitters Patapsco Picnic, there were not enough women competing to have a separate FPO division so Catrina Allen competed against the men in Open. She finished 27 throws off the lead, but still within the top half of the field.

 

[bluTDI09]

I do not think women are as close to reaching their potential skill level as men yet because the necessary competition is not there. That is not to say that the women who dominate the sport are not very good. It just means that if there were more of them, they would be even better. And that is mainly a statement about consistency, not ability to throw amazing shots. We have all seen them throw amazing shots that most disc golfers, male or female, can't do.

 

[TOURNEYPLAYER]

Skill and strength are two different things. I would almost go as far as to say the women are more skilled in a lot of ways. they have physical limitations that the men dont have and they still manage to perform at a high level. the mechanics have to be perfect when you cant strong arm a drive.

 

[bombmk]

The actual difference should be, more or less, provided by their ratings.

Highest rated male player is 1044 and the highest rated female player is 976. That should average out to a 7 throw difference, give or take. More on harder courses.
The tournament linked above had Catrina Allen 27 throws behind after after 3 rounds, which fits relatively well to that.

If the female field was as competetive as the mens, we would probably see a higher rating for the highest rated woman.

 

[Halcón]

Isn't it more a matter of size? A man's longer arms allow for more speed at the point of release, right? Would a 6ft tall woman with perfect mechanics throw like Avery, Garret, and Dion?

 

[bluTDI09]

Isn't it more a matter of size? A man's longer arms allow for more speed at the point of release, right? Would a 6ft tall woman with perfect mechanics throw like Avery, Garret, and Dion?

Again, an interesting read. If a woman was the same height, size, and body composition as a man, one might be able to argue that the only relevant difference in disc golf would be mechanics. However, such women do not exist so we can speculate all we want.

 

[MrFixIt]

Sarah Stanhope (I know she married and changed her name, I just don't remember it atm) is tall for a woman and can throw a disc like nobodies business.
Strength and skill are 2 completely different things.
I'd really like to see some female members of DGCR post their opinions....

 

[scarpfish]

I'm sure if more women joined the ranks, we would probably see a boost in that talent field, but if you're asking if the best female players in the world can play against the best men, umm, no. Not by a long shot.

http://www.pdga.com/world-rankings

Now if you were to put the top women against men with similar player ratings, then you might have something.

 

[Toro71]

Isn't it more a matter of size? A man's longer arms allow for more speed at the point of release, right? Would a 6ft tall woman with perfect mechanics throw like Avery, Garret, and Dion?

I wonder about this...Michele Wie, the pro ball golfer, is 6ft tall, and can hit the ball farther than some of the men on the pro tour. But, she's not really close to being the best female golfer.

Yet, PP can, and probably will always, be able to out drive me, and she's about the size of my right leg.

Technique goes a long way, and women are generally as strong/stronger than men in the central core area of the body, which is where a lot of the power in DG comes from.

I think most of it does boil down to the basic differences between men and women with regard to physical size/strength. DG may have less of a gap there than other sports, but basic biology/biomechanics is unavoidable.

I agree with others here that, if/when/as the women's game develops, and more women become involved, it will cause an increase in ratings at the top.

Hoping the ladies of DGCR have some pearls of wisdom on this one.....?

opcorn:

 

[Toro71]

I'm sure if more women joined the ranks, we would probably see a boost in that talent field, but if you're asking if the best female players in the world can play against the best men, umm, no. Not by a long shot.

http://www.pdga.com/world-rankings

Now if you were to put the top women against men with similar player ratings, then you might have something.

Right, exactly. Currently the actual gap is pretty wide, maybe wider than a top men's advanced AM vs. top men's open.

My sub-question is, is the simple fact of physical difference between the sexes enough to account for this current rating gap between the top men and women?

Is there something in psychology, too? My experience with life in general is that women are every bit as competitive as men are, maybe more so, but that the competitiveness tends to manifest itself in some pretty different ways. Not making any statement here, I'm genuinely curious about this one.

 

[throwfromthewoods]

One of the aspects that has been touched on is the lack of competition at the top of the women's field. The men continually strive to get better and better because every year a new crop of hot hands comes up. You're talking about 50 or more pro players that have the talent to win. That drives improvement. Get better, or get left behind.

With women, there are really only four true competitors for the top spot each year. Three of them are now with Prodigy (and were Discraft before that). In that regard, there's less of an outside push to make them elevate their game as fast as a mens touring pro has to. Hopefully that can expand in the coming years and be a catalyst for higher ratings. Honestly, Paige Pierce can distance drive on par with a lot of touring men. So it's not like that is holding them back.

 

[Grungedude42]

I've heard tales that women are better shooters than men. Besides driving distance, is there a noticeable difference in upshot and putting ability in men and women?

 

[bombmk]

Is there something in psychology, too? My experience with life in general is that women are every bit as competitive as men are, maybe more so, but that the competitiveness tends to manifest itself in some pretty different ways. Not making any statement here, I'm genuinely curious about this one.

Have talked quite a bit with different club members about this - women as well as men - in order to understand if women should be approached/introduced to the game differently. No clear answer.

Some of it fell back on getting dirt on under your fingernails, so to speak, maybe being less appealing. (this was a comment from a woman, I might add). Some of it, from older players, mentioned to the all too typical story of taking care of the children.

But as far as mentality goes, the link bluTDI09 provided gets into that a little, with men being more aggressive and having higher selfconfidence. How that translates into disc golf performance is a bit more unclear to me.

But it seems reasonable to reason that it should fuel a competitive spirit a bit more, maybe making men go that extra inch in training and competition. While also perhaps being a destructive force mentally at times. While the women might have lower drive but fewer "variations" in their game. All the women I play with have a much more even keel when it comes to handling bad shots than the men have - myself included. "Oh, well" vs "&#¤@£!!!!"

How was that for being categorical?

 

[throwfromthewoods]

I've heard tales that women are better shooters than men. Besides driving distance, is there a noticeable difference in upshot and putting ability in men and women?

At the top of their respective fields? I don't think so. Nikko can putt just as well as any top women's player.

However, at comparitive lower levels, I absolutely think so. An intermediate women's player has had to develop a better touch on approaching and putting to stay competitive. As opposed to the 900 ranked guy who just happens to be able to bomb 450' with relative consistency and so never bothered to develop a short game as well.

 

[keltik]

well let's look at the physicality of the current and previous FPO World champs.

Sarah Hokum is about 6' with an athletic build
Paige Pierce is appreciably shorter with an athletic build
Sarah Cunningham is about 6' with a slender build
3x Valerie Jenkins is 5'6" with a muscular build
3x Des Reading is 6' with a slender build
5x Juliana Korver is 6' with a slender build
5x +2x FMO Elaine King is average height with a slender build to athletic build

the key factors seem to be height (anything over 5'4") and slenderness (Jenkins being the outlier).

Looking at the men:

McBeth is short and slender
3x Doss is 6'+ and husky
McCabe is shorter and athletic
Jenkins is 6'3" and muscular
Feldberg is 6' and average build
12x +1x MMO Climo is 6'2" and gangly
2x Schultz is 6'1" and slender
Cam Todd is ~6'1" and slender
Ron Russell ???

MPO champs also tend to be taller and/or slender. Both genders "statistics" are skewed by the repeat champions (especially MPO.) But above average height is a key factor for both.

now skill wise I think both groups have above average skill. Our rating system appears to be gender biased but Chuck would have to explain it either way. It could simply be that the ratings are truly gender neutral and only indicate the natural differences between genders.

a 960 rated female could defeat most Am (900 or less) rated men in competition. I think the biggest difference though is that the ladies have a much better short game (200' and in) since they often do not drive as far as men. and again the difference between Pro and AM is often control, accuracy and mental focus not distance or strength.

Men and Women are different it's just that simple. I think the ratings system would have to be adjusted to get the FPO ladies 1000+ ratings. then there would always be the parenthetical men's rating to show the difference/comparison.

 

[bluTDI09]

Our rating system appears to be gender biased but Chuck would have to explain it either way. It could simply be that the ratings are truly gender neutral and only indicate the natural differences between genders.

The ratings system is 100% gender neutral. The only argument against that is based on the assumption that women sometimes do not get to play the same tees that men do at the same time so that the ratings might be calculated against statistically different fields. That is a consequence of how tournaments are organized, not the rating system.