McBeth vs. Climo

[spinachd]

You can't really compare players that didn't face the same competition with the same technology on the same type of courses, but greatness is on some level perception of an aura surrounding a player. There is no question that Paul McBeth has this. My oldest son started playing tournaments when he was 11 (2014), and because of that I would encounter other junior players a lot. Kids that viewed him with awe and completely emulated how he threw and what he threw. That's the first time I ever witnessed such a thing in DG.

I watched the end of The Master's on Sunday with current 11 year old, and was explaining who Tiger Woods used to be. And he says:

"So basically Tiger Woods was the Paul McBeth of ball golf"

 

[lyleoross]

You can't really compare players that didn't face the same competition with the same technology on the same type of courses, but greatness is on some level perception of an aura surrounding a player. There is no question that Paul McBeth has this. My oldest son started playing tournaments when he was 11 (2014), and because of that I would encounter other junior players a lot. Kids that viewed him with awe and completely emulated how he threw and what he threw. That's the first time I ever witnessed such a thing in DG.

I watched the end of The Master's on Sunday with current 11 year old, and was explaining who Tiger Woods used to be. And he says:

"So basically Tiger Woods was the Paul McBeth of ball golf"

No, Tiger Woods is the weaker version of Ken Climo. .

 

[Spiky]

I think we should be comparing Jordan's DG to Climo's football to Woods' soccer to Brady's hockey skills.

 

[Hyzflip10]

I don't Facebook for a reason. It encourages us to act reprehensible. This place is only marginally better. If Climo has really done this than I admit to a lot of disappointment.

In fact,i admit that the use of foul language directed at some other person online bugs me per se.

I'm off Facebook also. It is so easy for things to be taken out of context and things to escalate quickly.

 

[Jay Dub]

Nothing wrong with Facebook as long as you have somewhat good self control.

Scrolling is your friend.

 

[takman]

You can't really compare players that didn't face the same competition with the same technology on the same type of courses, but greatness is on some level perception of an aura surrounding a player. There is no question that Paul McBeth has this. My oldest son started playing tournaments when he was 11 (2014), and because of that I would encounter other junior players a lot. Kids that viewed him with awe and completely emulated how he threw and what he threw. That's the first time I ever witnessed such a thing in DG.

I watched the end of The Master's on Sunday with current 11 year old, and was explaining who Tiger Woods used to be. And he says:

"So basically Tiger Woods was the Paul McBeth of ball golf"

Please make him stop using the word 'basically' while he's still young. I'm on a campaign.

 

[drk_evns]

In general if you're a millennial, it's Mcbeth, if not it's Climo.

I'm predictable.

Mcbeth is the greatest of all time and I don't think anything else could convince me otherwise.

Climo's 12x is amazing, and he clearly made an impression on everyone playing the game in that time... but there's a lot more people playing the game now and a lot more people watching the current generation play.

I think Climo is still a "household" disc golf name because his name was printed on an absurd amount of discs, and for the generation that used them, no one else even comes close... but all those kids playing today (and the 20 somethings like me) are playing with a different name on the majority of their discs, and that's going to be the case for a long time.

Climo didn't care for his body or train like Mcbeth does now. He's acting like a professional athlete and he's a paradigm shift for Pro Disc Golfers in that way. He makes more money than any other disc golfer BY FAR and has such a complete game that I don't think peak Climo could even touch him. Sure, if all things were even and Climo was a 20 year old now, maybe it's different... but that's not the case.

I didn't watch Climo play, so I can't really speak to that, but people talk about Kenny throwing beautiful 350 foot s lines through the woods like Mcbeth wasn't regularly putting Novas on pins past 300 feet... and then playing 600+ foot drives in perfect position... and dominating regularly in high pressure scenarios with a field that's better than it ever has been.

 

[lyleoross]

In general if you're a millennial, it's Mcbeth, if not it's Climo.

I'm predictable.

Mcbeth is the greatest of all time and I don't think anything else could convince me otherwise.

Climo's 12x is amazing, and he clearly made an impression on everyone playing the game in that time... but there's a lot more people playing the game now and a lot more people watching the current generation play.

I think Climo is still a "household" disc golf name because his name was printed on an absurd amount of discs, and for the generation that used them, no one else even comes close... but all those kids playing today (and the 20 somethings like me) are playing with a different name on the majority of their discs, and that's going to be the case for a long time.

Climo didn't care for his body or train like Mcbeth does now. He's acting like a professional athlete and he's a paradigm shift for Pro Disc Golfers in that way. He makes more money than any other disc golfer BY FAR and has such a complete game that I don't think peak Climo could even touch him. Sure, if all things were even and Climo was a 20 year old now, maybe it's different... but that's not the case.

I didn't watch Climo play, so I can't really speak to that, but people talk about Kenny throwing beautiful 350 foot s lines through the woods like Mcbeth wasn't regularly putting Novas on pins past 300 feet... and then playing 600+ foot drives in perfect position... and dominating regularly in high pressure scenarios with a field that's better than it ever has been.

Yeah, so get off my lawn ya punk, damn Millennials.

I remember my grandpa, Oog. He could throw a flat rock a mile, uphill, both ways and kill a deer with it. Kids these days.

 

[Ryan C]

In general if you're a millennial, it's Mcbeth, if not it's Climo.

I'm predictable.

Mcbeth is the greatest of all time and I don't think anything else could convince me otherwise.

Climo's 12x is amazing, and he clearly made an impression on everyone playing the game in that time... but there's a lot more people playing the game now and a lot more people watching the current generation play.

I think Climo is still a "household" disc golf name because his name was printed on an absurd amount of discs, and for the generation that used them, no one else even comes close... but all those kids playing today (and the 20 somethings like me) are playing with a different name on the majority of their discs, and that's going to be the case for a long time.

Climo didn't care for his body or train like Mcbeth does now. He's acting like a professional athlete and he's a paradigm shift for Pro Disc Golfers in that way. He makes more money than any other disc golfer BY FAR and has such a complete game that I don't think peak Climo could even touch him. Sure, if all things were even and Climo was a 20 year old now, maybe it's different... but that's not the case.

I didn't watch Climo play, so I can't really speak to that, but people talk about Kenny throwing beautiful 350 foot s lines through the woods like Mcbeth wasn't regularly putting Novas on pins past 300 feet... and then playing 600+ foot drives in perfect position... and dominating regularly in high pressure scenarios with a field that's better than it ever has been.

Totally agree. I don't believe it's as "apples and oranges" as some people say. They are playing the same game with many of the same discs. Ken Climo may have innovated the way people look at the game, and he undoubtedly drove people to become better than they ever were before, but there is no possible way any version of Climo would be able to beat Mcbeth when he's playing up to his average standard, regardless of discs or anything else. Mcbeth's skillset is much better rounded and he makes putts in extremely high pressure scenarios like he feels no pressure at all.

There will always be certain types of courses where Mcbeth's advantage would be less obvious, but across the spectrum of woods and open courses, across many rounds of competition, Climo couldn't win.

And I'm a 30-something who DID watch Climo play when he was still touring.

 

[paulw]

"...There will always be certain types of courses where Mcbeth's advantage would be less obvious, but across the spectrum of woods and open courses, across many rounds of competition, Climo couldn't win."

Couldn't win Worlds? Barsby's better than Climo? (Anyone else waiting around for Climo's impression of Barsby . ... ? Just me?) Couldn't win regularly? He was 1040 rated as an old person. He could and would win regularly if he were in his prime now.

Could he not beat McBeth if they started at the same time . . .. ? He may have -- Climo stomped everyone into submission. I'm sure JohnE wants Ken to heal up and get back out there kicking his butt relentlessly. Barry -- hoping to see Kenny healed up? Didn't know Ron Russel but seemed like a mean cuss from the videos and I'm guessing that's what it would take to win when Climo was young. (Isn't Russell a roofer? They're wayyy above average on the toughness scale . . . .just saying.)

I know -- different time, etc. but we're what-iffing here and similar to Nicklaus v. Tiger, it's still Nicklaus. Tiger gets his 18th -- OK, we go to column B and Tiger's better. Paul gets his 12th, OK, Paul's better. Otherwise, be second.

(Note - Tiger gets to 17 (16?) I may renege on this along with if Paul makes 11(10?) . .. just saying.)

 

[Martin Dewgarita]

The better question would be, If I were to invent a time machine, would time travel physics allow us to bring a McBeth in his prime against a Climo in his prime, on a theoretically perfect course to battle it out?

 

[Always Hyzer Lines]

In general if you're a millennial, it's Mcbeth, if not it's Climo.

I'm predictable.

Mcbeth is the greatest of all time and I don't think anything else could convince me otherwise.



Climo didn't care for his body or train like Mcbeth does now. He's acting like a professional athlete and he's a paradigm shift for Pro Disc Golfers in that way. He makes more money than any other disc golfer BY FAR and has such a complete game that I don't think peak Climo could even touch him. Sure, if all things were even and Climo was a 20 year old now, maybe it's different... but that's not the case.

I didn't watch Climo play, so I can't really speak to that, but people talk about Kenny throwing beautiful 350 foot s lines through the woods like Mcbeth wasn't regularly putting Novas on pins past 300 feet... and then playing 600+ foot drives in perfect position... and dominating regularly in high pressure scenarios with a field that's better than it ever has been.

Ken didn't take care of his body? Sure, he smoked but clearly you never met the guy. He's was/is shredded with lean muscle. He's a fantastic overall athlete.

 

[drk_evns]

Couldn't win Worlds? Barsby's better than Climo? (Anyone else waiting around for Climo's impression of Barsby . ... ? Just me?) Couldn't win regularly? He was 1040 rated as an old person. He could and would win regularly if he were in his prime now.

Could he not beat McBeth if they started at the same time . . .. ? He may have -- Climo stomped everyone into submission. I'm sure JohnE wants Ken to heal up and get back out there kicking his butt relentlessly. Barry -- hoping to see Kenny healed up? Didn't know Ron Russel but seemed like a mean cuss from the videos and I'm guessing that's what it would take to win when Climo was young. (Isn't Russell a roofer? They're wayyy above average on the toughness scale . . . .just saying.)

I know -- different time, etc. but we're what-iffing here and similar to Nicklaus v. Tiger, it's still Nicklaus. Tiger gets his 18th -- OK, we go to column B and Tiger's better. Paul gets his 12th, OK, Paul's better. Otherwise, be second.

(Note - Tiger gets to 17 (16?) I may renege on this along with if Paul makes 11(10?) . .. just saying.)

Climo fans be like

Ken didn't take care of his body? Sure, he smoked but clearly you never met the guy. He's was/is shredded with lean muscle. He's a fantastic overall athlete.

I didn't say that he didn't take care of his body, I said he didn't take care of it like Mcbeth.

He's got a facilities now the Climo couldn't dream of (personal course/training facility, wife with exercise science knowledge, the internet, luxury of travel, money, etc.) and all the other pros constantly talk about how Mcbeth practices/plays more than anyone in the world. He's a professional athlete 24/7, Climo didn't have that luxury.

 

[paulw]

Climo fans be like



...

True -- but the hypothetical wasn't:

"You have to pick a doubles partner right now, who do you pick?" -- Paul . . .. duh.

"Ten years from now -- will McBeth have surpassed Climo as the best ever?" Yes.

 

[2naphish]

Ken's hatred of losing at anything is legendary. It is hard to verbalize how shocking it was when Ron ended the string at Worlds- the thought that someone other than Ken would win Worlds simply did not enter anyone's head.

there is an interview with Ken where he speaks about his loss to Russell. he was obviously still very upset. i do remember him saying that the courses were too easy (lack of shot shaping) and that a Worlds Title shouldn't be achieved by winning what he called " a putting contest" .

most people here don't know just how good he was at driving/ shot shaping. he could also put those drives to the place where he had the highest probability of making the putt. although he didn't have Pauls long putt, he rarely seemed to find himself out of the circle.

that said, i am a much bigger fan of Paul's as a role model and professionalism off the course.

 

[sidewinder22]

Could McBeth make all those long putts on Mach IIIs?

 

[Jay Dub]

there is an interview with Ken where he speaks about his loss to Russell. he was obviously still very upset. i do remember him saying that the courses were too easy (lack of shot shaping) and that a Worlds Title shouldn't be achieved by winning what he called " a putting contest" .

most people here don't know just how good he was at driving/ shot shaping. he could also put those drives to the place where he had the highest probability of making the putt. although he didn't have Pauls long putt, he rarely seemed to find himself out of the circle.

that said, i am a much bigger fan of Paul's as a role model and professionalism off the course.

I watched him a lot and have to disagree with the bold part. I saw him make many clutch putts from 40-50+ft

Could McBeth make all those long putts on Mach IIIs?

...and there will always be this that most players today don't consider during this debate. Mach IIs also.

 

[DiscinFiend]

Daves opinion on this topic
28:55

 

[2naphish]

I watched him a lot and have to disagree with the bold part. I saw him make many clutch putts from 40-50+ft

...and there will always be this that most players today don't consider during this debate. Mach IIs also.

i based that part on 2 things. watching him putt (% outside the circle) and Kens own assessment of his putting with his style " i try to make everything inside 30', everything outside that is a bonus".

 

[nrihan]

Kenny was vicious on the course. He wanted to make you quit. He was incredibly intimidating to play against. I don't see that in today's players.

I don't think this is quantifiable or even important in the discussion. What did he do that was so tough and made you want to quit? Give you funny looks? Blow his cig in your face? Just sounds like tall tales to me.