My Throwing Motion (iacas)

[iacas]

On my golf site, we have a "My Swings" forum where people will post video of their swings, get feedback, and keep posting in a single thread there in order to see progress over time (and not have 15 threads with the same person's motion, typically with the same flaws over and over again, etc.).

So I'm starting one here, and I'll just keep posting in this thread as I go along. Please help, and I'll keep trying to take the advice I get and apply it and posting new videos.

Below is video of me throwing indoors at our golf academy. It's 120 FPS. I can go 240 FPS which we'll commonly do for golf swings, but unless I hear otherwise I'll assume 120 is good for throwing discs.

This video shows my grip and then a series of throws from face-on and down the line as well. I'm trying to release them all pretty flat or perhaps slightly wing down. TRYING being an operative word!

I'm VERY new to disc golf but as a golf professional I'm VERY interested in proper form and developing my technique early without having a bunch of flaws. I'm easily in the upper 25% of golfers for distance, so I'd at least like to be average when it comes to disc golf distance. I'm 34, have strong legs and square shoulders but a comparatively weak upper body . No major injuries except dislocating my right shoulder when I was 21 (it still feels a little funny, not much but barely, if I throw a baseball or football overhand).

My pinkies bend in towards each other (it's more common than you might think). The bones are missing the "lip" on the inner edge so they've always bent in like this. My X-Rays were in the New England Journal of Medicine shortly after I was born. Anyway, that affects my grip a little as sometimes the pinkie will want to "tuck" under the ring finger.

I work through a few stages in this video, from a drill that I'm trying to feel to a no-step through to an x-step throw. Here it is:



I've numbered the throws in the left-hand side of my library there so if you see something in one of the throws please feel free to point it out by number.

I've not been playing that long but I typically play a shot that will turn right first and then fade at the end. I'm sure I probably have OAT like crazy and probably every other newbie mistake.

Distance right now is 250-275' or so with something like a Champ Teebird. That's not great, but it's not terrible and I think I can learn to throw farther consistently.

So please let me know what you'd work on first. I'm just looking for the top couple of priority items - not a laundry list of things to work on. I'd like to take it one step at a time - clean up the top priority or top two priority things, then move on to the next step after checking in to see how it looks. Working on one thing will often cause changes in something else, not to mention simply be "too much" all at once.

Please also tell me if I'm doing anything well at all, so I can keep making sure I do those things, if they exist.

P.S. We've also had tremendous success with students working indoors, because they work on building the correct motion rather than trying to make the ball (disc) fly where they want it to go. I believe the same will hold true for me as I learn to improve my DG throwing motion. If I get the correct motion down, my throws will be better.

 

[ReDisculous]

I'll point out a couple quick things that are all related.

You already mentioned your plant step is too long, your stance is just way too wide. Part of this is because your knees aren't bent enough. Bending your knees more will almost force you to take a shorter plant, and let you get your weight forward more at release.

Take a look at your video at about 4:50, the disc stays by your left shoulder as your torso comes around. You talk about the disc coming off the line and this is why. The disc needs to travel in as straight a line as possible until it hits an apex where everything changes direction (except the direction the disc is moving in). This apex is on the right side of your body, closer to your target. This apex is reached, not by spinning from back to front, but "rotating" 90 degrees, letting the disc and arm get more forward, then rotating 90(+) degrees. Bending your knees more will also help you with this. As you know, after you plant, you have to push the hips around with your rear leg. If that leg is straight , your hips come around immediately, if it is bent you get that extra fraction of a second while it straightens before you can move your hips so much.

ALSO, by starting to face up too soon, you get absolutely nothing from swinging your lower arm. Try flipping a pocket knife open without stopping your hand. You can't, just like you can't open the angle between the upper and lower arm while the upper arm is still moving in that direction. Without getting your arm longer before your torso makes it change direction, you wont really be able to use your wrist either.

Wow that got really long. Basically, need to get your elbow more forward, and be chopping with the arm before your body pulls your arm to the right. You seem to have a really good understanding of mechanics already, and a good base to build off of. Nice video.

 

[sidewinder22]

Nice vid/analysis.
1. Grip/wrist alignment is off. Your wrist is open in the downswing and too tight griping the disc. Need to get the disc more parallel to the forearm and more pinch between the thumb pad and index finger for stronger disc pivot gripping hard later in the throw...much later. You want to keep everything more taut rather than hard or loose. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMjxqe7GVIQ

2. Your set-up and stance is fairly open and wide. Try closing your stance moving your front foot more toward the left side of the tee and a little less wide stance. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LffYBb1vQjQ

3. You are shifting your center of gravity too much and over-heaving the backswing. In your backswing your weight goes toward the outside of your rear foot and everything goes to comprise from there. Your upper arm crashes against the chest and never get the elbow forward of the shoulder to release the lower arm levers. Keep your weight centered dynamically, more on the insides of your feet/legs back and forward and more width of the upper arm from the chest. From your last throw, you can see how far the disc travels way past your target line toward the right side of the tee in your backswing and the upper arm/chest are collapsed. You want to keep the disc more on the target line from the backswing or forward press, through the transition and bring the disc more into your body/power zone more from the left side of the target line on the downswing and get the elbow more forward of the shoulder.

4. Your shoulders are not rotating on plane. Try dropping the throwing shoulder on the backswing, helps keep the shoulder/arm looser or more taut especially for a hyzer swing plane. You end up with more of an over the top swing and don't stay inside the swing plane creating all kinds of off axis torque and wobble. Part of this is due to changes in your spine angle. Watch your finish position and how the hips throw you forward after impact and off balance/posture. You'll notice the top throwers maintain their balance on the front foot into the finish and rarely will they get thrown forward due to better posture/bracing the spine against the front side through impact. Well basically better posture throughout the whole throw.

 

[iacas]

(I would have embedded these images but they're pretty wide and I didn't want to stretch out anyone's browser windows or make for awkward horizontal scrolling. I hope links to them are okay. The videos have Avery Jenkins from the rear view and Feldberg from a face-on view. They're the only ones I've downloaded thus far. Recommendations on good slow-mo throw videos are appreciated.)

So here are my notes. Please tell me if I've gotten anything wrong.

Bend knees more to shorten stride. Weight doesn't get far enough forward.

http://f.cl.ly/items/3U303z2l241N2N0H2M3J/DG_01.jpg

Take a look at your video at about 4:50, the disc stays by your left shoulder as your torso comes around.

Can you clarify this piece? What should the disc be doing here? Is this just a matter of my right upper arm getting too close to my chest and not pulling it across my chest soon enough?

http://f.cl.ly/items/1C382Z0w0z2h1A421e3U/DG_02.jpg

I may not need clarification if I've got that right above. Thank you.

This apex is reached, not by spinning from back to front, but "rotating" 90 degrees, letting the disc and arm get more forward, then rotating 90(+) degrees. Bending your knees more will also help you with this. As you know, after you plant, you have to push the hips around with your rear leg. If that leg is straight, your hips come around immediately, if it is bent you get that extra fraction of a second while it straightens before you can move your hips so much.

We talk with our students all the time about how in the golf swing the lead knee straightening is what prompts the rotation to "take over" from the hips sliding forward/towards the target during the downswing. The knees straightening encourage the hips to rotate, I get that part.

I'm not entirely sure I understand the difference in what you're saying between "spinning" and "rotating." They're the same to me, but you say don't spin, rotate. The sequence is supposed to be this (?):

- Hips spin to square to the camera
- Right arm pulls disc across chest
- Hips and torso begin spinning again, disc is ejected from hand, hand sweeps right after release. The release is the "hit" or "apex".

Is that all right?

ALSO, by starting to face up too soon, you get absolutely nothing from swinging your lower arm. Try flipping a pocket knife open without stopping your hand. You can't, just like you can't open the angle between the upper and lower arm while the upper arm is still moving in that direction. Without getting your arm longer before your torso makes it change direction, you wont really be able to use your wrist either.

So you're saying just about what I see here:

http://f.cl.ly/items/3I3a2u2D131U3L1q1g1F/DG_03.jpg

My shoulders are way open compared to Feldberg (the Jenkins video shows this too), and my release is late because of this. Or you could say my elbow is late getting forward and I spin too much too early, pulling my line to the right. Yes?

I should ignore that Feldberg in this video and the one above has his left foot entirely off the ground, yes? He's pushed his momentum forward and he's just letting himself get carried "into" his right leg, yes? Not necessarily something to emulate, just a Feldberg quirk? Because Jenkins doesn't do it as much here:

http://f.cl.ly/items/2f2r2K3U050p2z1p1Y0L/DG_04.jpg

Basically, need to get your elbow more forward, and be chopping with the arm before your body pulls your arm to the right. You seem to have a really good understanding of mechanics already, and a good base to build off of. Nice video.

Thanks.

I think I've got that. You saying that helped to clarify some of the questions I asked above.

So more knee flex, shorter stride, pull the arm across the chest faster. Plus what seabas22 will tell me.

Nice vid/analysis.

Thanks. I suck, but I'm looking to get started the right way.

1. Grip/wrist alignment is off. Your wrist is open in the downswing and too tight griping the disc. Need to get the disc more parallel to the forearm and more pinch between the thumb pad and index finger for stronger disc pivot gripping hard later in the throw...much later. You want to keep everything more taut rather than hard or loose. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMjxqe7GVIQ

Thank you for the video.

Can you clarify "open in the downswing"? I could see it meaning one of two things and I'm not entirely sure which you mean:

1) Is my palm facing too far up towards the sky? Is that "open"?
2) Is my wrist too dorsiflexed and without enough palmar flexion?

Maybe it's something else I didn't think of, but I have a hunch it's one of those two things that you mean.

The change in grip pressures I can do. More pinch with the thumb and forefinger. I swear I heard someone say something about how they pinch with the heel pad a lot more than they pinch with the thumb, but that was in just one video and I brain farted there - I know I've heard about squeezing the thumb and forefinger together in several more videos.

2. Your set-up and stance is fairly open and wide. Try closing your stance moving your front foot more toward the left side of the tee and a little less wide stance. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LffYBb1vQjQ

Thanks. I can do that. Knees more flexed, stance narrower, angle a bit more to the left. Stance adjustments shouldn't be too hard to work on simultaneous with other things.

3. You are shifting your center of gravity too much and over-heaving the backswing. In your backswing your weight goes toward the outside of your rear foot and everything goes to comprise from there.

So this picture shows what you're talking about here?

http://f.cl.ly/items/3i1h3G2k4609103l3Z05/DG_05.jpg

Your upper arm crashes against the chest and never get the elbow forward of the shoulder to release the lower arm levers. Keep your weight centered dynamically, more on the insides of your feet/legs back and forward and more width of the upper arm from the chest. From your last throw, you can see how far the disc travels way past your target line toward the right side of the tee in your backswing and the upper arm/chest are collapsed. You want to keep the disc more on the target line from the backswing or forward press, through the transition and bring the disc more into your body/power zone more from the left side of the target line on the downswing and get the elbow more forward of the shoulder.

So these images demonstrate what you're saying here?

http://f.cl.ly/items/2i1r3b2k1o0q3h0T0Y2e/DG_06.jpg

http://f.cl.ly/items/3O3C0q2G0t2S362v3T2y/DG_07.jpg

4. Your shoulders are not rotating on plane. Try dropping the throwing shoulder on the backswing, helps keep the shoulder/arm looser or more taut especially for a hyzer swing plane. You end up with more of an over the top swing and don't stay inside the swing plane creating all kinds of off axis torque and wobble. Part of this is due to changes in your spine angle. Watch your finish position and how the hips throw you forward after impact and off balance/posture. You'll notice the top throwers maintain their balance on the front foot into the finish and rarely will they get thrown forward due to better posture/bracing the spine against the front side through impact. Well basically better posture throughout the whole throw.

Right shoulder lower on the backswing.

Honestly I think the rest I might just have to save for later and/or see how they clean up on their own (they might only a little or not at all, I know). And I know "the rest" really isn't all that much, but just the spine angle stuff. I think some of it might clean up a teeny bit with the stance width/knee work I'll do. Then I'll look at that next time, unless you think it's a big enough issue that I should make it a higher priority.

Right now, my notes are:

- Grip tighter with thumb.
- Minimize stance width, increase knee flex to help rates of rotation and narrower stance with stance aligned left a little more.
- Weight more over or even to the inside of my trail foot. Also helps with above (narrower stance).
- Upper arm farther away from chest, pull elbow through faster/harder/sooner.
- Lead shoulder down during reach-back.

Sound about right?

 

[sidewinder22]

I think you got it all pretty much spot on. In regard to the open wrist I'm referring to #2 I think, the wrist is extended forward early, where it should be the last lever to release.

Check out this video below, the first guy Steve Brinster is a former distance champ and a bit smaller in stature than the others, seem some of the sickest shots on the course from him. The second guy Big jerm is the current world distance champ, he is also a self described mutant, it's amazing to see how much he pivots his body into the backswing. Third guy lefty, Joe Mela is former world champion also known as the technician. The 4th guy Brian Schweberger is another former distance champ and has a tennis background. You can see they all have some different quirks, but they all use the same principles through impact and finish pretty much the same.


Erin Hemmings has a few of the longest recorded throws ever with a disc and current world record with aerobie ring:


Espen uses a nice gravity move and has thrown 200 meters:

 

[iacas]

I think you got it all pretty much spot on. In regard to the open wrist I'm referring to #2 I think, the wrist is extended forward early, where it should be the last lever to release.

Thank you. I suspected it was that one.

I will check out all of the videos you've listed, and I'm reading a few threads (like this one). I know a guy who has recommended you as a great guy to talk to likes Steve Brinster, or said that you think he has the best form out there. One of those is true.

Thank you. I may get some more work in tomorrow or later this week. I'll update this thread when I do. Hopefully not with a 9:00 video.

P.S. I work with (in golf) quite a few guys in Medina, OH. It's the town that borders Hinckley, OH, where the Jenkins' (mom and dad) still live. I've inquired about taking lessons with them and they are open to it. Worth investigating or should I just keep working at this?

 

[JR]

Nerd alert you guys degenerated this into too much too soon. The OP shares our observations about trying to swallow the problem whole and rectifying everything in one go. Ain't gonna happen. The number one thing to cure is to remove health risks from planting the final step flat. The plant step should land on the side of the toe rolling to the heel ball of the foot airborne immediately when you're on the heel. To achieve that the sole to side of the shoe corner is along which the foot should be rolling from the toe to the heel. Planting flat on the ground risks twisting the ankle, knee, hip and back even if you don't hit anything with the foot being too low in the ball of the foot to stop the pivot early. And there is a lot to do to improve. Good luck ironing out stuff. Unlike many you are well ahead of the game in self analysis and getting the elbow forward. Good job. Feldy counters the force from the elbow chop with the left leg kicking forward and right. Newtonian physics and i just wrote about it in another thread.

Eventually you should get personal coaching but in order to get more out of it you should work with us because this is free and the better you are when you get there the more advanced and tricky stuff they are able to give you to work with and you'll get a better return for your efforts.

 

[ReDisculous]

JR is right, I have this bad habit of going off on tangents. Everything I was pointing out can be summed up easily, if you check out the diagram on this page (you will have to scroll down a bit):

http://www.discgolfreview.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=16139&start=165

You never reach figure 4 because your rotation speed is too constant EDITor you face up too soon). All of my points were ideas to help you get into that position. You skip to something that resembles figure 5, except your arm is still bent.

- Hips spin to square to the camera
- Right arm pulls disc across chest
*********************************
- Hips and torso begin spinning again, disc is ejected from hand, hand sweeps right after release. The release is the "hit" or "apex".

Is that all right?

Between pulling the disc across, and "the rest", your arm needs to begin to straighten. We call it the elbow chop around here. This is part of the reason you are taking the disc off the line, and not getting a defined apex. You can't do the elbow chop in the proper direction (down the line)if your torso is pulling your shoulder/upper arm around already. The ejection of the disc happens when the hand moves from one side of the disc to the other, when everything gets pulled to the side, at the apex.

... pull the arm across the chest faster.

It's not really a matter of pulling any faster, it's delaying the rotation of the torso/shoulders to get the hand/disc further forward into the apex. Pulling faster at this point will probably just cause the disc to slip out instead of getting any real leverage.

Blake T made a really great diagram that illustrates the apex in this thread http://www.discgolfreview.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=24903&start=30
In the throw I pointed out where I said the disc never got past the left shoulder, you are basically the "shoulder spinner" in the diagram.

Hope that helps.

 

[iacas]

Nerd alert you guys degenerated this into too much too soon. The OP shares our observations about trying to swallow the problem whole and rectifying everything in one go. Ain't gonna happen. The number one thing to cure is to remove health risks from planting the final step flat. The plant step should land on the side of the toe rolling to the heel ball of the foot airborne immediately when you're on the heel. To achieve that the sole to side of the shoe corner is along which the foot should be rolling from the toe to the heel. Planting flat on the ground risks twisting the ankle, knee, hip and back even if you don't hit anything with the foot being too low in the ball of the foot to stop the pivot early.

I think that part of the reason I land a bit more flat-footed than on the outer edge of my foot is simply that my step is so long. It's like in running, where you ideally want a mid-foot strike, but if your stride length is too long you have little choice but to heel strike. Shortening my stride and staying a bit more vertical with less of a lean back will allow me to get to the outside of my foot and thus my heel a lot more quickly.

That said, I think I do an "okay" job of it already. http://cl.ly/image/1B020j0b1i01 And fwiw my knees are fairly well conditioned, given my golf career, to absorbing a little bit of twisting.

So I really think by shortening my steps I'll have a fairly easy time doing what you suggest, and can work on other things without absolutely making sure I'm doing this first. But caution noted, and I'll monitor this closely and make working on my stride and stance the top priority.

And there is a lot to do to improve. Good luck ironing out stuff. Unlike many you are well ahead of the game in self analysis and getting the elbow forward. Good job. Feldy counters the force from the elbow chop with the left leg kicking forward and right.

Do you agree that, aside from the top priority thing above, I've got a short list of one or two other top priorities to tackle as well? See the updated list below.

Eventually you should get personal coaching but in order to get more out of it you should work with us because this is free and the better you are when you get there the more advanced and tricky stuff they are able to give you to work with and you'll get a better return for your efforts.

OK. Thank you. I see benefit in both: coaching early to get good basics and fundamentals, but also how those can be easily learned and I could "save" coaching for when I've got a halfway passable version of "form".

JR is right, I have this bad habit of going off on tangents. Everything I was pointing out can be summed up easily, if you check out the diagram on this page (you will have to scroll down a bit):

http://www.discgolfreview.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=16139&start=165

You never reach figure 4 because your rotation speed is too constant EDITor you face up too soon). All of my points were ideas to help you get into that position. You skip to something that resembles figure 5, except your arm is still bent.

Thanks. Posting the picture here for posterity (and ease of use)

Between pulling the disc across, and "the rest", your arm needs to begin to straighten. We call it the elbow chop around here. This is part of the reason you are taking the disc off the line, and not getting a defined apex. You can't do the elbow chop in the proper direction (down the line)if your torso is pulling your shoulder/upper arm around already. The ejection of the disc happens when the hand moves from one side of the disc to the other, when everything gets pulled to the side, at the apex.

Yes I'm starting to see that. I think I had in my mind something more like the image of pulling the disc behind the hands. If I had thought about it I would have likely realized that was an incorrect image, but I know for certain I was not emphasizing the hands being on the outside of the disc (12 o'clock) and making that a focal point.

It's not really a matter of pulling any faster, it's delaying the rotation of the torso/shoulders to get the hand/disc further forward into the apex. Pulling faster at this point will probably just cause the disc to slip out instead of getting any real leverage.

It's something I've worked on in my golf swing (I was always very rotational there and had to feel that my arms sped up in much the same way - getting farther across my chest). We rarely have anyone feel that they slow something down - rather we have them feel they speed something up. It's all relative (typically), and my arms may not move much faster but relative to my chest turning they will be.

So we're likely saying similar things, but I'm putting them in my terms or "feels" that I'm borrowing from golf. I did watch the video of the closed-shoulder guy, and it too is similar to a drill we've used in golf for a similar problem. I'll try both "feels" and see which one works best, but again, I think we're saying the same thing, just using a different frame of reference. At the end of the day, the chest rotates too quickly relative to the arm and the arm is too slow relative to the chest.

Blake T made a really great diagram that illustrates the apex in this thread http://www.discgolfreview.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=24903&start=30
In the throw I pointed out where I said the disc never got past the left shoulder, you are basically the "shoulder spinner" in the diagram.

Yes, I can see that.

Picture looks a LOT like (same principle) the "endless belt" in The Golfing Machine:

You can see that when the hands begin to "turn the corner" in the endless belt (the belt is traveling at the same speed but because it's turning around a radius radius suddenly the clubhead will be whipped outward, down into the golf ball) the force will be directed down, snapping the clubhead down with added "kick."

Here's video of me working on "getting my arms down faster" in my golf swing. This has the effect of sharpening the radius at the bottom of the "endless belt" in the golf swing (equivalent to applying a sharper "apex" in disc golf).



It's this swing - which feels effortless despite bumping clubhead speed up a few ticks - that will be my guiding principle in disc golf. If I make a motion correctly, I should get the feeling of effortless power when the hand turns the corner and the disc rips around and then out of my hand.

FWIW, "SLAM" is my feeling for getting my right arm straight and my right elbow down and in front of my belly button earlier in the downswing. This "slows the rate of rotation" of the shoulders, but it doesn't if you just measure the rates themselves. It slows them relative to the arms, though. Which is why I think a similar feeling may help me in DG.

So I've revised what I work on based on the added advice now. I like to work on about two "things" or "thoughts" at a time in a dynamic motion. "Pre-shot" or "setup" things typically don't count towards the "thought total."

a) Grip tighter with thumb, really feel the pivot point there. (Thought Value: 0).
b) Minimize stance width, increase knee flex to help rates of rotation and narrower stance with stance aligned left a little more. Pay attention to plant foot dynamics per JR. (Thought Value: 1)
c) Weight more over or even to the inside of my trail foot. Also helps with above (narrower stance). (Thought Value: 0.5 because it ties into b).
d) Keep hand on outside of disc, let it snap around at apex. Accomplish by with shoulder/arm rates (chest slower relative to arm, arm faster relative to chest). (Thought Value: 1)

For later:
e) Lead shoulder down during reach-back. (Thought Value: 1)

That's 2.5 for now, so I'll probably spend some time working only on footwork and grip (TV: 1) and then slowly begin incorporating (d) into it.

THANK YOU!

 

[JR]

After staying healthy the grip needs to be set right because that is accomplished mostly before you start the throw. So it is like a chapter in pre flight check list of pilots and making things fly disc golfers benefit from a self and disc check before you start to move after situation analysis, line selection, disc selection and power setting selection.

Slam, apex of the endless golf hitting machine belt equivalent in disc golf is the right pec position. There the elbow reaches the tightest angle and straightening the elbow from there adds to the best possible relative movement of the forearm vs the body. Note that this is a leap frogging action that is repeated in the wrist and possibly with manipulation repeated in the disc pivoting between the index finger and the thumb. In some forms. More on the advanced stuff after you can feel it and have polished the basics to the point that you can see and feel the difference between the regular passive and active disc pivot.

You need to polish everything in form for perfection so everything needs attention sooner or later. Normal advice here is working from the hit backwards but i disagree partially with it because you gotta be proficient enough to feel and see the results of that work at least up to a point to be able to see what is different with the late in the throw stuff. Something that can be easily masked by fundamental flaws in form. That can lead to erroneous conclusions and capped progress.

After the grip the stride length should be the next one to be inspected. Note that proper stride length varies with speed. One needs a long enough plant step to not lock up the heel pivot from lack of movement range in the hip joint hip vs upper thigh. The step needs to be short enough to allow the knee to be bent at landing. Probably not for overheads but for every other throw. The other things in your list are all good and i don't have an opinion as to the order in which to practice them. Note that the grip and the stride length and the resulting weight shift and timing differences will transform other aspects of your form easily so i recommend keeping on videoing yourself. The other issues can be resolved automatically at least partially with the first two corrections.

I love the slo mo vids and your analysis software. It is such a powerful form changing tool that it is insane Have you looked at Dartfish?

 

[iacas]

After staying healthy the grip needs to be set right because that is accomplished mostly before you start the throw. So it is like a chapter in pre flight check list of pilots and making things fly disc golfers benefit from a self and disc check before you start to move after situation analysis, line selection, disc selection and power setting selection.

I agree. That's why grip is one of the higher priority items. Not only how I grip it but where my grip is located on the disc relative to my body and target line (more 9 o'clock and less 12 o'clock).

Slam, apex of the endless golf hitting machine belt equivalent in disc golf is the right pec position.

Well I think the endless belt apex is closer to the point at which the disc begins pivoting in the hand. It's not during the straight line portion. You could overlay TGM's endless belt over some of the graphics I've seen recently from Blake and they'd line up perfectly.

There the elbow reaches the tightest angle and straightening the elbow from there adds to the best possible relative movement of the forearm vs the body. Note that this is a leap frogging action that is repeated in the wrist and possibly with manipulation repeated in the disc pivoting between the index finger and the thumb. In some forms. More on the advanced stuff after you can feel it and have polished the basics to the point that you can see and feel the difference between the regular passive and active disc pivot.

Right, more on that later. I'm reading it, but only because I trust myself to read it only and not really to worry about it in my practice sessions. I'm hoping to go down town and work on them today.

You need to polish everything in form for perfection so everything needs attention sooner or later. Normal advice here is working from the hit backwards but i disagree partially with it because you gotta be proficient enough to feel and see the results of that work at least up to a point to be able to see what is different with the late in the throw stuff. Something that can be easily masked by fundamental flaws in form. That can lead to erroneous conclusions and capped progress.

We often work on stuff earlier in the backswing in golf as well, because as you likely agree the things you do in the backswing have a cascading effect throughout the motion.

After the grip the stride length should be the next one to be inspected. Note that proper stride length varies with speed. One needs a long enough plant step to not lock up the heel pivot from lack of movement range in the hip joint hip vs upper thigh. The step needs to be short enough to allow the knee to be bent at landing. Probably not for overheads but for every other throw. The other things in your list are all good and i don't have an opinion as to the order in which to practice them. Note that the grip and the stride length and the resulting weight shift and timing differences will transform other aspects of your form easily so i recommend keeping on videoing yourself. The other issues can be resolved automatically at least partially with the first two corrections.

My list a-d is pretty much grip and stride work, so that's all I'm focusing on right now. Thank you.

I love the slo mo vids and your analysis software. It is such a powerful form changing tool that it is insane Have you looked at Dartfish?

Yes, I'm somewhat familiar with Dartfish. We built Analyzr for ourselves and sell it and it's done really, really well. We like it quite a bit. If anyone here has a Mac I'd be happy to set you up with a discounted rate for Pro or Student. But I'm not here to try to sell anything, so I'll limit my public comments on Analyzr to that.

 

[JR]

Eliminating cascade failures is key to unlocking the rewards from working from the hit back. No Macs for me thank you very much. I am not supporting that company at this time. There are different styles to throwing and there was a lot of heated debate in Finnish Frisbee Association's forum when i dropped some DGR practices there because people tend to throw differently here. Swedes have a different style and a subset around Skellefteå. There are different styles in the US as well.

 

[iacas]

So here is a quick update. I've spent a little time practicing, but I'm prepping for a trip (golf) to Scotland so DG time has been limited.

I did practice two days later, and that video is here:

(It's uploading now and should be up in about 45 minutes.)

In the video you'll see I discretely (not discreetly) work on the pieces. Grip (was able to do this in all facets of course), step length, and what I'm going to continue calling "getting the arm across my chest faster." I didn't worry about the release or anything like that, though in later practice sessions I did. Not in these initial ones, though.

I also spent a little time working on the heel plant stuff.

I snuck away for a 18 holes today and early holes showed a propensity to grip-lock a few throws WAY right. After that I concentrated on putting the disc on the line on which I intended to throw it, and then "getting my arm across my chest" faster.

I threw a Flow against a cross-breeze (R to L) basket-high on a 355-foot hole (40 feet right, but that's fine as I simply expected the disc to fade a bit more at the end). I threw a nice Blizzard Wraith a hole or two later that also didn't fade out as much as I thought it would. The releases on these discs felt VERY nice and fairly relaxed, yet went farther than the throws earlier in my round.

Not a TON to report here except that I'm pleased with my progress. I've come a *little* bit farther than what you'll see in the video (again, that was two days after the first video), but not a lot. I feel I'm working on the right pieces, though, and will post again next when I show more improvement and may need to re-prioritize. That'll be awhile though - I know how much work it takes to change a motion.

Thanks.

 

[JR]

Terminology clarification: You don't land on the heel but you pivot on it and you had enough height in the ball of the foot when you tried it. You recognized and illustrated rounding well. When the disc moves far away from the body (what the rounding does) it gets way easier to have grip locks. These vids had the shoulders turning toward the target too early not allowing the elbow to move forward enough before chopping straight. Check the nose angles of the discs at the rip. There is too much variation with some wrist straight nose way up throws in there.

 

[iacas]

Terminology clarification: You don't land on the heel but you pivot on it and you had enough height in the ball of the foot when you tried it.

Yes, I think we agree on all of that. I'm simply exaggerating certain things in some cases.

You recognized and illustrated rounding well. When the disc moves far away from the body (what the rounding does) it gets way easier to have grip locks. These vids had the shoulders turning toward the target too early not allowing the elbow to move forward enough before chopping straight. Check the nose angles of the discs at the rip. There is too much variation with some wrist straight nose way up throws in there.

They're improved from before, though, yes? I still feel I'm working on the proper things. The closed-shoulder stand-still drills looked decent, oui?

 

[JR]

The main improvements i saw were the shortening of the final step, getting the elbow consistently somewhat forward before chopping the elbow and raising of the ball of the foot for the heel pivot. But don't be greedy advance at your own pace. Getting there will be its own reward you don't need other peoples opinions. They don't add distance etc. only changing form does that. So driving distance, accuracy, consistency and form are the measures you need to follow.

 

[sidewinder22]

Some improvements, but need to keep working on it. Your balance is too far behind your heels and spin out instead of pivot. You want to keep your weight on the inside arches of your feet, in-between your feet. Try to keep your rear heel off the ground a little more, it's hard to leverage the hips from the rear heel. Also land your front foot on the inside of the toes and roll through the inside of the arch down to the heel...always keeping pressure on the inside of the foot. You can also roll your weight over the front foot, instead of pivoting on the heel or ball. The pivot should be more weightless.

Moser basically uses no reachback of the disc from the right pec, keeping his upper arm/chest angle very wide. You will also notice a difference in the rear foot/heel in the finish and how it pivots up. Also watch how the front foot gets more airborne in the pivot. There's more suddeness/release.


Skip to around 2:30 and pay attention to the posture and alignment.

 

[iacas]

I've been working on some things lately but haven't shot video, but even in working on things I noticed something in the Will Schusterick video that I probably want to consider:

http://f.cl.ly/items/472E2L1y141N0l2o3l2n/Analyzr%20Image%20Export.jpg
(Camera angles aren't exactly the same, but close enough.)

Avery Jenkins doesn't seem to have quite that extreme of a tilt, but my left shoulder being THAT high is not good. In slow motion drills I can feel how lowering the left shoulder gets me forward (in both directions "forward") a bit more and gives the disc a little more room to pull through on a straight line - it doesn't have to swing out to get around my chest as much.

 

[JR]

Can you see how Will has the knees bent much more and they are directed against each other? Prepping a good push back with the right leg and the opposite with the left leg. Contrasting that to the similarity in the right hip to left hip intersecting line being at the same angle as the right shoulder to left shoulder line you can see how you're more weight back. Also you have the disc farther toward the right of the tee than Will. You need to round the initial part of the throw or you'd hit yourself. Will has the plant step toe pointing farther away from the target and the shoulders are much more rotated back, he can pull in a straighter line.

 

[iacas]

Can you see how Will has the knees bent much more and they are directed against each other? Prepping a good push back with the right leg and the opposite with the left leg.

No. I don't see that at all because his left leg just drags his left toe across the tee pad from this point on. He gets no push with his left leg from there. There's no "pushing" with the left leg or foot in this:
http://f.cl.ly/items/302U0Q2d1L1t073d250A/Schusterick.jpg

Contrasting that to the similarity in the right hip to left hip intersecting line being at the same angle as the right shoulder to left shoulder line you can see how you're more weight back.

Yes, I see that. It's a small difference in actual weight location but I pointed out the difference in shoulder angle, so yes, I see that.

Also you have the disc farther toward the right of the tee than Will.

I'll skip this for now because I'm not on a tee and I'm not sure I know what you mean - the right side as I look down the hole, the right side from the camera's point of view? I'm not on a tee.

You need to round the initial part of the throw or you'd hit yourself.

I thought I said that? Glad you agree, JR. Thank you.