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Operational definition of "glide"

Nothing to add to the conversation but I have to say I love threads like this. Thanks guys for making for some fascinating reading/discussion ::thmbup:

Agreed, very beneficial in helping me get a better understanding of what glide is.

But I am left with a question that is slightly off topic, but was discussed in depth, and that is the idea of having to throw putters slightly nose up to achieve more glide. I understand the aerodynamics of the conversation, but now I am left with a practical dilemma. I have been told a number of times to disc down and to throw putters to work on my form. But if you have to throw putters nose up, even slightly, to achieve optimum distance, wouldn't that be teaching yourself bad habits for when you disc back up to fairways and drivers, which are more sensitive to nose angle anyway?

And as a side note... I don't know what the rule around here is about resurrecting dead threads, but this one was only dead a few months, so I feel like this is bringing it out of a coma, as opposed to resurrecting it from the dead all together. So I feel alright in taking this leap.
 
We love resurrected threads, you're cool.

People advocate learning to throw with putters/mids for 2 primary reasons:

1. They're slow, making them easy to get to speed and generally easy to throw straight.

2. They need height to go far. One of the main tricks to throwing far is throwing a disc nose down but with a good apex. Putters are blunt and meet a lot of resistance so you have to put some air under them to get them to travel before gravity pulls them down.

You're correct in assuming that putters don't teach you how to throw with proper nose angle. This is partly why they're suggested so often, because most n00bs start out by throwing drivers with severe nose up that stall out and fade hard left. It's a "crawl before you walk" scenario. If you throw with bad nose angle a putter won't punish you as badly and you can see what aspects of the throw you're actually doing right before it crashes hard left.

I never advise n00bs to go strictly putters/mids only. Always a good idea to keep a very slow driver like a Leopard or Cyclone in the routine to work on nose angle issues. They're still slow enough that most people can get them up to speed and they're neutral enough to be diagnostic of bad form like OAT.
 
Alright so that makes more sense. Currently my biggest struggle is throwing a disc with its nose level but good apex. I feel like I can do one of the two... Height or release angle, but haven't mastered the ability to do both. Any suggestions?
 
Are you trying to throw flat? It's a lot easier to get the nose down on shots where you have a hyzer/anhyzer angle on the disc than when you're trying to get a flat release.

Also, really focus on having your wrist cocked down like you're giving a handshake. It's tough to keep it that way through the whole throwing motion and it feels odd at first but that's what really was the nose angle breakthrough for me. Also, take a look at where your pull starts and ends. Especially for a hyzer shot, starting the pull a little lower and finishing a little higher helps get the nose down (it seems counter intuitive, I know).
 
If the nose is down on your disc and your discs are still rising up then crosswind could be picking up your discs.

I have noticed that all my discs with glide(and that's almost all if you look at my sig.) pick up a little when there is a crosswind. They almost jump around in the air.

I specifically carry a high weight Stalker for situations where there is a low ceiling because it won't move so much in the air and will hug the ground yet still give me good distance.
 
Glide is how smooth/efficient your disc can go through the air without energy. The more resistant your disc is to drag and the more lift it can generate the farther it glides.

The disc reaches it's apex which is the highest it can go before gravity overtakes it. Air is being forced against your disc. Lift is your discs ability to deflect this flow of air based on it's shape and weight keeping it in the air longer. The spinning also creates lift.
 
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-I had read this thread a few months ago and it has some good posts, I just gave a friend a new disc to try and when trying to describe it summed up how I think of "glide"- Being able to/staying aloft at low/lower air speeds.
 
Are you trying to throw flat? It's a lot easier to get the nose down on shots where you have a hyzer/anhyzer angle on the disc than when you're trying to get a flat release.

Also, really focus on having your wrist cocked down like you're giving a handshake. It's tough to keep it that way through the whole throwing motion and it feels odd at first but that's what really was the nose angle breakthrough for me. Also, take a look at where your pull starts and ends. Especially for a hyzer shot, starting the pull a little lower and finishing a little higher helps get the nose down (it seems counter intuitive, I know).

This plus make sure your weight is not back during your throw. Gotta transfer that weight onto/over your plant foot when you're ripping.
 
Man, I went to school for engineering for a while, and laminar flow and lift-induced drag became obsessions for me until I quit. I just typed three pages trying to get a concise answer across using explanations that are somewhat easy to grasp.

I will have to keep at my little paper and try to make some illustrations to help reduce the text, but I can sort of sum it up.

Glide is indeed a quality of flight based on it speed versus its ability to make lift. But there are a LOT of factors that explain everything from glide, to fade, to even high speed turn and how oat can cause the flight to change. The weird and cool thing about disc flight is that the math is calculated for the flight like you are doing math on an airplane wing that is the distance of the throw, that changes shape for the whole distance.

Now we know that discs don't accelerate more after we release them, but they can actually rise and lift in flight between the release and the landing. How much power it takes to generate that lift, and how much power the disc can handle before the lift is too high and it starts turning (actually stalling but really hard to explain that in short) is related to angle of attack in flight, stall speed of the disc at that angle, and lifting line of lift-induced drag imparted on the rear of the disc during the flight time where the forward speed is greater than required for maintaining a large amount of drag without stalling. (yeah it is pretty confusing)

A glidey disc that is understable has a very large angle of attack even when it is level, meaning it makes a lot of lift without much speed. It also has a high amount of lift-induced drag because its lift making ability.

This drag is made from the flow of air leaking from the bottom of the disc to the top (going from low pressure to high pressure area) around the back trailing edge of the disc. As long as the disc is not thrown too hard, this drag actually stabilizes the flight of the disc by giving a cushion of air long enough for the whole disc to ride on, with pressure underneath almost the same at front and back.

However, the slightest head wind, or too much speed at release, really bumps the front side pressure up, and leaves the back in very low pressure turbulent air all over. This actually makes the back of the disc rise thanks to rising line theory and causes it to turn down and to the right for the RHBH throw.

Conversely, when this type of disc does begin to slow down and fall, it has that big comfy cushion of air staying under it. This keeps it travelling forward more than down as opposed to an overstable or stable disc. The nose can't get much higher than the tail, which is what causes the disc to stall out and fall.

A glidey but stable disc has the same qualities as above, except it has a very aggressive angle of attack when level, so that when the speed increases, the cushion of air under the disc is enhanced by something I think is called a boundary layer of air, which is basically an envelope of smooth air over the back top of the wing made by extra turbulence on the front. This keeps more of the high pressure air under the disc and more low pressure over the top, with less lift-induced drag for the same amount of lift generated being the net result. So this type of disc plays a trick in flight by giving itself extra properties of stability based on inefficiencies it has at speed. We take advantage of this quality by over-powering the disc essentially to get it to fly neutral. Then once that disc slows down, it fades really hard, because that angle of attack up front stalls out the disc immediately as soon as the boundary envelope dissipates. Which is why us noodle arm guys can't huck a 175 tee bird as far as a valk for instance. We can't hit the speed of the heavy teebird necessary to get it to have that extra-neutral, "pocket" air layer built up. It takes a lot of speed.

Now onto stability. All discs follow the rules above at some speed. Even the most stable disc will eventually fly like a comet if you can torque it hard enough to get a low pressure pocket over the back of the disc. Net stability of the disc is derived from how much stall is occurring in flight over time and why. The same way good glide is a component of having a lot of lift drag which makes it less stable with more speed, stall from not enough speed prevents a more stable disc from flying longer unless you throw it faster. It can't use its angle of attack to make a even layer of air under the disc without speed, so the back of the disc falls, and since it is spinning, it fades out and to the left.

Now when we throw a disc, we know there are several ways to manipulate a particular disc to fly differently than explained above. Nose angle at release, hyzer and anh angle, forward speed, and spin speed.

Nose angle is easy to understand. This will allow the disc to break some of the rules of its flight before it starts to actually glide from stall due to leading edge resistance and the turbulent air from it. Since you have put more forward momentum into the throw than can be used for lift due to angle of attack, the disc is stalling, but it is still headed forwarded with more inertia than air can fight if you have a good snap. Your throw will yield a disc that essentially begins to turn over like you snapped too hard, and it will go right some acting like the disc with no pressure on the top of the back, because at such a low angle of attack they don't have enough resistance on the leading edge to make lift at all, only a big cloud of turbulence around the disc. Then the back falls again and they make the lift they should, but later in the flight.

Hyzer and anhyzer just modify the timing of when stalled flight or true glide takes over, similar to nose down but with less of an effect. The amount of spin affects how exponentially fast the disc slows down and changes flight characteristic. That gets super friggin hard and its late. Basically if you made a line from the center to one point on the edge of the disc, the more times that line points in the same direction for the same amount feet the disc flies forward, the more it will fly like an actually wing of it shape at every speed. So the more spin the disc has through the flight, the longer it will fly the way you released it.
 
I read over this and I realize I have left out some important information about inertia imparted from spin and how this affects the effective wing profile over the flight. I can't really understand it completely so I guess I can't explain it! I think it would take a lot of computing to do that math anyway. Aspect ratio of the wing is something else I didn't really include. Eh. I may be over thinking it.
 
Lift is your discs ability to deflect this flow of air based on it's shape and weight keeping it in the air longer. The spinning also creates lift.
Lift is a force. Glide is a disc's characteristic. Spin doesn't really create lift in golf discs, it maintains the attack angle in which it might produce lift and glide further forward.
 
Spin can in fact help to create or maintain lift. It gives the circular shape of a disc the ability to fight fight fade (stall speed) with the effectiveness of a longer wing by enhancing the ability of the edges to fight deflection from vortices generated from lift-induced drag. Basically, spin helps increase turn-over during lift, therefore delaying and modifying the stall speed. And the effect is increased with extra nose down.
 
I should add this: Spin will increase glide if imparted with off angle torque. It will help maintain glide with consist torque on the same vector. I think...90% sure. OAT is hard thing to grasp!
 
Spin it's self doesn't create lift(at least beyond anything negligible), but like I said it can help glide. If you ignore a forward velocity and spin a disc it's not going to lift(at least in what humans are capable of with normal golf disc design).
 
Think of it this way: If you want to throw a roller, you have to spin your disc and then that spin takes a direction when the disc hits the ground and goes. If you dropped your disc on the ground did not spin it, you would not have a very good roller throw. You got your disc on the ground but it was only moving down. If you threw a disc in the air without spinning it, a similar thing would happen. The disc would tumble end over end and eventually parachute down one way or the other up based on where the most weight was, if it had enough time to settle in its flight to the ground. When you add spin, it does the same thing in the air to a degree when it is on the ground but it is amplified in a different way since it slips less. A roller can't spin out much before it catches traction because the ground is grabby. I can put enough force on it to spin it as hard as I want, when it hits the ground it is going to roll, not spin. Any extra force that doesn't convert to extra speed rolling forward is imparted into changing direction left or right depending on the disc stability. A flying disc, though, is slipping and spinning a lot for how far it is moving forward, but the torque of this force in a perpendicular direction to glide is part of what provides stability of flight for a longer time. Glides for longer if the torque of spin is resisting any stall. Even without enough air to float it for its speed. Inertia keeps it in that position because those forces are beating some of the forces being imparted by aerodynamics.
 
Well, to meet in the middle: If you throw any disc with any amount of forward speed and no spin, it will only begin to stall immediately.

I did misread your first reply at the top of this page. Apologies. Time for bed lol. Not aero science.
 
its all relative......

speed , spin, conditions, weight of disc, release angles.......They all work togeather and finding the right ballance of all the above is what its all about. And the best place to figure it out is not on forums or lengthy discussions. I am sure there is a sweet spot in speed rating vs glide/lift ratinging, at y rmp, with and average forward speed of x. but you r not going to find the perfect disc based on the nubers stamped on the disc alone. They should get you in the ball park, and that is what the ratings are about. Probably wasnt meant to be fully understood by the common folk..... I made one purchase based on glide. thought my weakling arm needed all the glide # someone could stamp on top of a disc. Also a slower speed disc......never liked it.
 
To me discs of the same speed with more glide will take less power to go the same distance. At the same time those discs that have more glide will tend to be more finicky. Also it seems low glide discs are easy to judge distance with and I don't get as many shots blowing by the target.

I just think of high glide as a disc that has more lift like a foam glider toy and a low glide disc is more like a lawn dart thrown thrown through the air. It can still be aerodynamic and go as far it just doesn't have as much lift.
 

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