OTB Lawsuit Predictions

[jenb]

And don't forget posting on DGCR

I don't even play casually anymore and I still post on DGCR. It's the last thing to go.

 

[Monocacy]

I don't even play casually anymore . . .

Sorry to hear that. Care to share why?

 

[mostlynorwegian]

Again, NR is the plaintiff. The burden of proof rests with the plaintiff.

Actively, since the DGPT decided to appeal for their continued need to gatekeep. The onus is back on them to provide the tangible evidence in the form of statistics that this ominous threat of a 5th place trans player is actually worth any sort of legal effort in worrying about?

 

[oddjob]

"Actively, since the DGPT decided to appeal for their continued need to gatekeep."

Let's start with the first sentence, what in the actual **** are you trying to say?

 

[DanJon]

LoL, quote MLK or Gandhi on DGCR and you're compared to Satan. Perfectly twisted for this twisted forum.

Guess I'll just have to quote Jesus to quicken my descent to the fiery pit of DGCR, I mean Hell.

"And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?" Matthew 7:3.

Guess I'll be burning with Natalie and the DGPT and PDGA soon.

Holy victim complex Batman.

 

[denny ritner]

The appeal was on procedural grounds.

 

[mostlynorwegian]

"Actively, since the DGPT decided to appeal for their continued need to gatekeep."

Let's start with the first sentence, what in the actual **** are you trying to say?

Quick recap. The decision was appealed by the organization, and the trans player who traveled and also paid to play, and to also promote her sponsors was told to **** off.
That is what the actual **** I was trying to say.

 

[jenb]

Sorry to hear that. Care to share why?

PDGA proved to be villains, and so did people I played with I thought were friends. The disc golf community disappointed me as a whole, to the point I'd be embarrassed to say I play disc golf. I finally realize there's no such thing as friends. Embarrassed it took this long to realize it.

 

[peabody]

It wasn't that long ago we were *****in about pot smoking hippies ruining our game. Red eyed happy folk enjoying spinning plastic discs with whomever wanted to join in. It was a "the more the merrier" vibe.
Competition was inevitable and the game turned into sport.
"You guys should sign up for our next tournament and yeah there is a 10 dollar PDGA fee".
"Wow, this should be even more fun than we were already having".
All the giggling and laughing and pats on the back went away but all your friends were sticking with it so you paid 50 bucks to the PDGA and kept at it or you started hanging out with new disc golfers who were pot smoking Red-eyed and had a "the more the merrier" vibe.

Jenb: the game is still out there.

 

[Skamanda]

So, you think it's the PDGA's responsibility to provide proof that transwomen have an unfair advantage playing in FPO?

That is the initial accusation, so yes. When it flies in the face of the best known science, and they use a study widely known to be flawed and biased, published by anti-trans pundits, and using the words of someone well known for dishonest hate speech against trans people, absolutely.

 

[Skamanda]

You're right. They are hosting the events and paying out players according to the divisions they deemed necessary and fair. Seems like if someone wanted to contradict those decisions the burden of proof would be on them.

They deemed those divisons fair WITH trans women in them, until the season after a trans woman won money on live streamed coverage, by the narrowest of margins each of the two times she did it. Considering trans women have won events (including world championships) multiple times in the past without so much as a shrug from the PDGA, it makes their actions assailable quite easily.

 

[Skamanda]

Again, NR is the plaintiff. The burden of proof rests with the plaintiff.

NR is the plaintiff in the court case. The burden of proof that the ruling isn't discrimination lies on the PDGA. The judge in her TRO case made it plain that the PDGA's decision was flawed.

 

[denny ritner]

NR is the plaintiff in the court case. The burden of proof that the ruling isn't discrimination lies on the PDGA. The judge in her TRO case made it plain that the PDGA's decision was flawed.

NR's attorney scored a point, but still lost the game. It's a long season. Remember, in the end the SC will allow private athletic organizations to make their own rules on this issue.

Ideally we can all work within the inevitable framework and find where's best to draw the lines. I would think that there's a place somewhere between the two PDGA standards that would optimize outcomes for the whole.

 

[Skamanda]

I would think that there's a place somewhere between the two PDGA standards that would optimize outcomes for the whole.

I think you're correct here.

I think the current testosterone level requirement is too restrictive - but not by much. Also, having gone through transition, and seen how long it took me to finally come to a "stable" state with my muscle/distance loss, I actually think the PDGA got the 24 month requirement correct. At the very least, it should be allowable for a trans woman to have levels across the entire range a cis woman does, despite the fact that we're typically well below that due to HRT or removal of the organs producing it - forcing us to maintain a lower level unnecessarily handicaps some trans women. The IOC limit of 10 nmol/L makes people uncomfortable, because it allows for nearly 5 times the testosterone that a healthy cis woman would have. I think, at least until/unless more science comes up with a more concrete reason for it to be okay being that high, that level leaves too much room for people to be concerned about fairness, so setting the levels at those of a healthy cis woman makes more sense.

I also think it's only fair to test cis women, as well as trans women. If Caster Semenya can be forced to take a testosterone blocker (I know she's intersex, but she was unaware before the controversy over her performance, and she identifies with the sex she was assigned at birth), then a cisgender/intersex disc golfer who is similarly above the acceptable level of testosterone should be held to the same standard, if we're concerned for the fairness of a high testosterone level. The reason for the testosterone limit isn't specifically because someone is trans - it's because that chemical is performance enhancing in any human.

Finally, and I know this one is a double edged sword, but the PDGA has allowed for trans woman to continue competing (at basically any level that has no chance of ending up on a paid live stream). Fair at low levels, fair at all levels. Since no trans woman is dominating FPO or FA* at any level of play, they should be able to play at any level of event. I know the typical response I get to that is "unfair at one level, unfair at all levels", but the more we find out about the science, and the rationale the PDGA used, or what made Natalie an important person to react to, rather than Nova or Laura, it becomes harder and harder to defend the suggestion that it had anything to with anything being unfair.

I think those simple tweaks would make things better for anyone concerned with fairness, while also ending discrimination against trans women.

 

[Spectacledbear]

It should be full exclusion from fpo or full inclusion yes.

 

[Skamanda]

It should be full exclusion from fpo or full inclusion yes.

Exclusion is the tricky one, if we're talking about fairness. If action is taken to ensure that cis women aren't losing money to people they "can't" compete against (putting aside completely that they can, and that there is no evidence of a trans woman dominating FA* or FPO), what is to be said of the fairness of forcing someone who is on even footing with cis women, to compete against MPO players (who cis women are protected from competing against, for good reason)? We've seen where the best cis women in the world finish, when playing on the same layouts as MPO (someone in one of the threads here mentioned not even KT and PP made the cash line for MPO), and those players consistently beat the trans players, almost all of the time.

I did some napkin math, based on US population, how many are trans women, and the overall player base of the PDGA and came up with less than 500 potential trans women playing disc golf worldwide - and that assumes that none would avoid the sport because of how the community talks about us, which we already know not to be true. Since that means there aren't enough trans women to make a separate division feasible, what would the best solution be?

A friend of mine had an interesting suggestion, but I don't know how easy it would be to make successful. There could be a separate division for all women, inclusive of trans women. Current FPO stays as current FPO, but those cis women who aren't afraid of competing against trans women can play this new division, along side the trans players. The problem comes in with the size of the field initially, and what that would mean for the potential payouts - especially for those on the tour, who may see the 1st place payout being less than half what they're used to, unless/until more players join the new division...

 

[denny ritner]

Amanda,

I agree with much of what you just said and I think that pushing forward with incremental improvements to the policy as more and more research is done is the only way we'll come back together as a sport. This brings me back to the first statement I made on the issue last year, which got me attacked from both extremes.

The tug of war from extremes on this issue (and many others in this country) will not move us forward. Tangent, but our two most powerful political parties and their corresponding cable news outfits are all ADDICTED to keeping us divided.

I'm no angel, we all know that, but I'm not as rigid as some might think.

 

[araytx]

I don't even play casually anymore and I still post on DGCR. It's the last thing to go.

C'mon, Jen, I was talking to Hampstead who specifically stated that his/her/their involvement in disc golf was, "...I'll continue to play casually with friends, but that's it." I was simply pointing out that they needed to add "...and posting on DGCR..." if that was truly it.

 

[Shallows]

Even the FoxNews website is now covering the story. I browse all the main news websites, and this is the first one I've seen addressing it. The article is a simplistic, nuts-and-bolts overview for the layperson. My biggest question is in the article they have several stock photos of disc golf. One shows a basket (hole #2) in an overgrown field. What course is that?

https://www.foxnews.com/sports/transgender-female-disc-golfer-removed-womens-event-legal-drama

Star Mako3

 

[Hampstead]

C'mon, Jen, I was talking to Hampstead who specifically stated that his/her/their involvement in disc golf was, "...I'll continue to play casually with friends, but that's it." I was simply pointing out that they needed to add "...and posting on DGCR..." if that was truly it.

You're right, aray. I suppose I should have added that I'll still look at the discs in my basement, reflect on memories of courses played, and occasionally say the words disc golf out loud as well, picker of nits.