Over a thousand hours in the field and all I got was this stupid form.

[pjsb1]

Ok, I'm really confused by what you said before and what you're saying now. Before you said my hips go too early and never even got back at all, and I'm not doing the buttwipe. Now, in picture number 3 you're saying I'm planting too backward. I'm clearly misunderstanding what you're trying to say. I'm looking at how thomas gilbert plants vs how I plant and the main difference I can see is that his knee is in a better position.

At this point, all I'm trying to do is adjust based on the feedback I'm getting, but I don't seem to understand it well enough to effectively do that.

I'm starting to think I should just go back to this form I had in november https://youtu.be/5VtpHcXzyg4
But now it's snowing, so I suppose I'll just sit around and pull my hair out trying to figure out what to do.

For what it's worth, my distance has seen no change throughout all of this since november. The only change I've had is more accuracy when I kept my weight farther back. I've been throwing 400 consistently and 430' on a good rip since november. 450' on rollers.

 

[pjsb1]

additional info**


because of the position of your left foot shown below your body cant coil (you are not able to build as much tension) as much as we would like (redline kinda shows a better position of where the toes could point)
View attachment 76249

link below will show you a drill that will also get you a feeling of what being coiled feels like. and how you are loosing the tension based on where your toe is pointed

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWasFdvnGio#t=6m5s

if you do the drill you will get the feeling of being coiled up. if you do the drill and move your left foot so the toe points where the red arrow goes you will loose the feeling of being coiled up. it took me awhile to get this drill but i believe when you feel a tenseness feeling of the muscles in the area where i circled thats a part of the feeling of being coiled up correctly. if you get this tense feeling and if you pick up your left foots toe. because of the tenseness of the muscles your foot should rotate counter clockwise as it uncoils the tension in the muscles.
View attachment 76251

That was just the result of me trying to turn my hips back more because he said my hips never really got back and I didn't do the buttwipe. I wasn't sure what he meant and that was the result. I'm aware of the inside swing drill, I actually use that drill more than anything else when I'm trying to teach others a lot of the time. It's simple, easy to do, and it immediately gives you the feeling of tension in your core that a lot of people don't realize should be there.

 

[sidewinder22]

Ok, I'm really confused by what you said before and what you're saying now. Before you said my hips go too early and never even got back at all, and I'm not doing the buttwipe. Now, in picture number 3 you're saying I'm planting too backward. I'm clearly misunderstanding what you're trying to say. I'm looking at how thomas gilbert plants vs how I plant and the main difference I can see is that his knee is in a better position.

At this point, all I'm trying to do is adjust based on the feedback I'm getting, but I don't seem to understand it well enough to effectively do that.

I'm starting to think I should just go back to this form I had in november https://youtu.be/5VtpHcXzyg4
But now it's snowing, so I suppose I'll just sit around and pull my hair out trying to figure out what to do.

For what it's worth, my distance has seen no change throughout all of this since november. The only change I've had is more accuracy when I kept my weight farther back. I've been throwing 400 consistently and 430' on a good rip since november. 450' on rollers.

You aren't doing me or yourself any favors by limiting yourself to 1 camera angle and never showing yourself doing any of the drills(you can work on and video drills inside - door frame/bow and arrow). Buttwipe or Hip Depth issues are much easier to see from behind the tee.

I also think it might be too much to work on both BH and FH at the same time. I never really had to practice FH, but I gave up throwing FH for a close to a year so that I could focus all work on mastering the skill of backhand. You are way ahead of where my BH was at that point back then though, so probably just need a shorter time to really focus on one or the other. The downside you have is your bad "muscle memory" where I was starting from more a blank slate with terrible form, but not much "memory".

 

[pjsb1]

I agree with everything you're saying here. I will say, I used to not work on both forehand and backhand thinking that I should get my backhand good first. Then I found out if I get frustrated I can just switch between the two (and putting), and it makes working on form less monotonous.

I'll go back to what I was doing in November. It just seems that every time I make a form change on my own it's terrible. It's hard for me to see that because what happens is I'm only making the change because something is working better. If I weren't throwing as far or I was less accurate obviously I wouldn't do it. It's just that I'm sacrificing the integrity of the throw for instant results I suppose.

As for my muscle memory I don't think it's terrible, it's just that I don't have a natural inclination for what's right. If I do something right it doesn't just click unless I see the results in my throw (which I often don't until I've made several changes). I can still easily go back to what I was doing before, it's just that I often think "Take one step back to take two steps forward." So I don't mind if I mess up my throw and make it look sloppy for a while if I can make progress out of it (though I rarely do by myself).

I suppose what I'm really saying is that I'm a truly terrible judge of my own form. That being said, it looks like in November I was still pointing my back foot too far backward, so I'll work on that.

 

[pjsb1]

Ok, so I didn't exactly go back to what I was doing in November because I think I finally figured out what you meant by having the ballet stance. In the past when I would take a shorter plant step I was having trouble getting a consistently good brace. I figured out that when I take a shorter plant step, it's easy for me to turn my hip out and it wasn't something I had worked on at the same time as a small plant step before. Immediately I could feel a difference, for the first time it actually felt like I was getting power from my back leg and bracing against momentum. I had gotten a brace before but not without being totally off-balance. Now I understand how people like Colten Montgomery can plant with their knees bent so inward and still end up with a good brace, it's because their hip is turned out when they plant so when their plant foot comes down their knee moves out into a braced position in response to the force instead of bending in. I just needed the hip flexibility from a shorter step to be able to do that.

I've been working on hip flexibility every day now since I realized how inflexible my hips are so I'm hoping to be able to make these movements easier for me to perform. I think right now standing tall and having really small steps is easiest for me, it feels like an effortless 400+' with my sidewinder. I am trying to work on squatting into the throw and leading with my hip more but that's much harder for me to perform, I'll need to work on my posture and balance to pull that off. My arms and upper body in general seem very wonky now, they haven't quite adjusted to the footwork; I think I need to have more of a tilted upper body that hangs over my disc if I want more control, but like I said that requires me to squat more and have better balance.

https://youtu.be/LTHo01IsGos Throwing uphill. (Obviously terrible off-arm, at least I tuck it)

I apologize for only having the one angle but I was a little rushed on time.

 

[sidewinder22]

I don't know how you brace with the hip past the knee.

 

[pjsb1]

I don't know how you brace with the hip past the knee.

I was running up a bit right to left, though perhaps I should have chosen a different video to post. I only chose that one because it went the farthest, I think this video looks a little better form-wise.

https://youtu.be/LQ3PN6hByEE

 

[lostDoughnut]

you rotate flat footed and on the outside of the plant foot. you lack the plant knee extension, 'staying back' similar to baseball. when your plant leg lands we want it to land with a straight knee.


https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140030

i think your muscles need to learn how to hold the weight back or how your plant knee needs to learn how to extend during the downswing. its not something i think of doing but my muscles learn how to do it automatically like walking.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uWigK12xNY&t=358s

this drill needs to be done with something heavy for the muscles to really feel whats going on. i used a cat litter tub filled with water.





left hand is a bit high up relative to ground at peak backswing position



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLo97jXn5Wo&t=205s

 

[lostDoughnut]

thats a tough position to try and perform knee extension.

 

[pjsb1]

I agree, I think I still have my left foot facing back too far a lot of the time in these throws which is making it hard for me to extend my plant knee like you were saying. I think the farther back my left foot is pointing the farther out in front of myself I have to plant to maintain correct posture. If I'm not doing that on purpose it takes me off my intended line. GG in the power of posture video has his left hip/foot not turned nearly as far back and it gives him more mobility to plant more in line with the direction his weight is going so it's all traveling together. This is also why I was having trouble reaching back high I think, I'm reaching too far out relative to where my feet and hips are in line.

Please correct me if I"m wrong about any of this.

 

[sidewinder22]

Yeah rear foot pointed too far back, rear knee never kicks in.

 

[pjsb1]

I figured out that my hips follow my shoulders in turning back when my core is tired and can't maintain the hip/shoulder separation from reaching back. I was practicing for an hour before I realized I was just too tired to keep up good form, my next throw I forced myself to have my shoulders back and hips "forward" (perpendicular to target) and it went way better than the previous throws. :doh:

I'll take a break and post again in a few days when my core muscles are no longer sore. I know I've been told not to practice so much in the past but as you can tell I'm slightly obsessed with disc golf(form).

 

[pjsb1]

Ok so uh, I got very busy. I stopped doing form work nearly as much as I used to but now I'm back to it. I can now throw 450 max somehow, I think due to having ballerina posture with my hips turned out. I recorded myself throwing maybe the farthest/hardest I've ever thrown. Video starts with slow motion and then ends in real-time.

https://youtu.be/Fhjl_4sDdKc

It looks to me like I'm rolling into my plant for maybe the first time ever, which is weird because I recorded some 3-steps before this and wasn't really doing that. My off-arm is slightly better than normal, slowly taming it.

I know in the past you said you'd like some videos from behind and videos of me doing drills, so I'll make sure to grab some videos of those for my next post. Just wanted to put up my newest iteration of my throw in the meantime.

 

[sidewinder22]

Looks like you land too backward on rear foot.

 

[pjsb1]

Looks like you land too backward on rear foot.

Every time I try to fix that I lose my ability to brace, it's really awkward and annoying. I think it may just be that my ankles are very flexible so the left ankle actually more turned back than my left hip is? I'm not sure. Here's a video from the 18th where I tried to fix my back foot angle.

https://youtu.be/4oLFObw6Ckc

For reference, I'm trying to keep the ballerina posture but just having my plant foot more open to the target so that my back foot can be less turned away. I think the problem is that I'm not keeping my plant foot open to the target. I've tried this before and it's always very awkward.

I think maybe a bigger problem I have is the "weight shift from behind." I think I'm not getting my hips behind my body to add to the throw. I went over that thread and it made me realize that my attempt at "leading with the hips" was putting my hips in front of my body and then they wouldn't be adding to the throw.

Curious what you think of all that.

 

[pjsb1]

Wanted to post to say that I fixed my back foot angle. I needed to keep my weight more over my back foot/leg as I threw to not collapse on the brace when I changed my back foot angle. It looks like I'm more capable of a weight shift this way, though I still look a bit off like there's something still missing. Now my max is about 460 feet and I can reliably get about 420 with a controlled throw. My off-arm is also still wild a lot of of the time.

https://youtu.be/-29EnC40HN4

I'm not sure what else I need to do but I feel like I could get my reach back a bit more consistent to help with aim, and I probably have more power in the tank in the lower body but I'm not sure how to get it.

 

[sidewinder22]

You are moving the disc way back behind you/early. Move your body around the disc.

Looks like your mass is too far back and then too far forward and your pressure shifts very slow between your feet instead, being more centered with quick pressure shift between the feet(Riding the Bull). Note how Simon's rear hip is closer to target earlier in stride.

Your left arm is not helping things, it's compensating for things. Keep your left elbow closer to your hip like Simon, or do a full circle swim move like Linus Astrom.

I still don't believe you about not being pigeon toed, you move your legs like you are. You land pretty rough on the front leg and the leg snaps back. Simon lands more lateral/open with the front hip braced behind the knee already and pivots smoothly on the heel.

 

[txmxer]

Open field, how often do you hit C1 at 350'? 400'?

Assume 10 throws.

 

[pjsb1]

Open field, how often do you hit C1 at 350'? 400'?

Assume 10 throws.

I'd say at least 5/10 from 350 and at least 3/10 from 400. I can reach both those distances on hyzer so it might be a bit more but I am certainly not the pinnacle of consistency so that's a conservative estimate.

 

[pjsb1]

You are moving the disc way back behind you/early. Move your body around the disc.

Looks like your mass is too far back and then too far forward and your pressure shifts very slow between your feet instead, being more centered with quick pressure shift between the feet(Riding the Bull). Note how Simon's rear hip is closer to target earlier in stride.

Your left arm is not helping things, it's compensating for things. Keep your left elbow closer to your hip like Simon, or do a full circle swim move like Linus Astrom.

I still don't believe you about not being pigeon toed, you move your legs like you are. You land pretty rough on the front leg and the leg snaps back. Simon lands more lateral/open with the front hip braced behind the knee already and pivots smoothly on the heel.

I think I'm pigeon toed from the hips, which had me confused for a while there. There's apparently a few types of pigeon-toeing, and the type I think I have means I don't naturally turn my feet in and I can turn them out easily, but I can't turn them out much from the hip joint and can easily turn them in. My knees are just flexible enough to have made me think I'm not pigeon toed.

The balance and weight shift seem like they could be hard for me to adapt to so I'll focus on the reachback for now. Hopefully my balance and weight shift improve just from me trying to throw smooth and doing some drills. Thanks for the advice!