Over a thousand hours in the field and all I got was this stupid form.

[pjsb1]

After changing my pelvic tilt and relaxing my shoulders I felt fine for a while but I started missing early left a lot. I eventually realized today that was because I had changed where my weight is in my throw and I had kept this plant step that was way out in front of me which compensated for my butt sticking out as I threw. Now I have to bring my weight over my heels and keep it there as I move into the plant instead of planting outwards away from my body.

Here's a few different backhand throws while I was working on this, please ignore the fact that my off-arm is doing 3 different things in these 3 throws, it does what it wants when I'm focused on other things.

https://youtu.be/tOyUkIk2mq8

For the forehand, I'm still bringing my left arm too far back, just working on that at the moment.

 

[sidewinder22]

Stop bending your knees at the start. You are bending yourself into bad posture and balance and making this much harder on yourself. Start by standing upright naturally and relaxed and walk/dance naturally/almost drunk. Only one knee should bend at a time on the ground and doesn't need to bend much to get moving and flowing. You start leaning back on left leg w/ big knee bend in your first step instead of leaning/moving forward.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IFO7J3AV5Y#t=4m30s

 

[pjsb1]

I really do love to over-complicate things and make it harder for myself. Thanks for the advice!

 

[pjsb1]

Yep, getting my weight ahead of myself fixed pretty much everything, what a surprise. I'm going to have to continually drive this into my brain until I get it. I think it might be like my off-arm where whenever I make a change I just lose my brains.

Here's my backhand: https://youtu.be/aYL6hgILbps

I think more interestingly I worked on my forehand today and was able to get the off-arm into a better spot I think, but I was torn between two ways of throwing. I've been trying to work on a non-chop forehand but I found the chop forehand to be way more accurate and consistent when I was practicing. I'm having a tough time doing the low forehand consistently and I'm curious what you see between the two ways I throw. (Sorry for the low video quality, it was pretty dark.)

https://youtu.be/wISSPHgCSZ0

 

[sidewinder22]

The BH X step definitely looks better. I would work on One-Leg Drill or Elephant Walk, you land/finish awkward on front leg(both BH/FH).

FH you also appear to be leaning back away from target behind rear foot. Balance and weightshift gets wonky. Your front knee collapses. Your left hand is thumb up instead of thumb down in the stride.

 

[navel]

Tip for bracing:

Think of it as sitting down or getting low before a jump instead of diving straight into the brace leg. Your weight should be ever so slightly behind the brace leg (from target). Hard to spot, but the difference in feel is huge.
Then you just let your weight roll up from inside your brace foot to the outside of the foot. Wait until that roll has happened and then push off. Tricky to time it but you'll know when you do it right. Watch some pros and focus on the brace foot up to the knee. They are sitting down and rolling up on the leg, just like you would do when walking. If you land straight into your leg you'll miss out on all that ground force as well as loose your balance. It will stop your forward momentum, just like driving into a wall. You want it to feel like a deceleration that gives power to an acceleration. (Just like a whip!) You don't want it to feel like a car crash.

What would happen if this pole vaulter held the pole horizontally and then ran straight into a wall with it? (Hint: BAM!) It would stop him totally.


Remember, your brace foot is the tip of the pole going into the ground. It's out in front of your weight (but not too much) and it's rolling down into the ground while your weight and power travels up the pole, not over it, not stopped behind it.

 

[pjsb1]

For the backhand plant in that throw I would say I just had my hips turned back a little much by the time I planted. Needed to have my hips more perpendicular to the target so leg wouldn't collapse. Perhaps having my toe pointed down going into the plant would give my subconscious a cue to havw more time to get my body in the right position. The rolling into the plant explanation is great, I'll steal that.

For the forehand my brace is a bit weird, at some point I just started landing toe first and it's really annoying. Although it doesn't affect me most of the time it does cause me to slip every so often so to prevent injury it's definitely in my best interest to fix it completely. It's just one of those things I can't tell I'm doing until I film it.

As for leaning away from my target on a forehand, I'm really unsure how to fix this, does my back leg need to be straighter? Do I have to be practically falling forward to get my weight ahead of my back leg? Should I turn my hips slightly to the side and subsequently turn my shoulders even farther? I'll have to look at some videos of pros throwing forehand and see how their posture differs. (And also I'll obviously watch the video you posted)

I'll keep working on the off-arm with the forehand as well, I think I got the hand right in one of the two throws in the video.

 

[sidewinder22]

FH - you kind of hop behind your left foot which also puts you behind rear foot. Just walk more sideways standing up relaxed and then get lower going into plant. Nothing wrong with planting toe first, but I would plant more on the inside edge/instep of the foot first. Heel first plant is typically on longer strides with more open foot.

Note how your shoulders tilt opposite of mine, your lower arm/disc goes vertical above your head, my lower arm/disc lays back more horizontal. Also note how your rear knee is buckled inward, mine is torqued outward.

 

[pjsb1]

Huh, the more I'm looking at these things you're pointing out the more I think I'm stuck between 2 different forms. I bring my right shoulder up like I'm going to do a chop forehand and then I try to bring it down like I'm doing a low forehand swing. That's probably why my chop forehands feel more consistent.

Then I'm doing a hop step but keeping my hips facing forward. Everyone who walks into a forehand keeps their hips forward and everyone who does a hop step has their hips turned to the side. I'm keeping my hips forward and doing a hop step so I'm off balance on my back leg when I land on my back foot. I re-watched Dylan Horst's forehand and he has his hips completely sideways until his weight is past his back leg and then he swivels them forward, he also keeps his shoulders level or with his left shoulder slightly above his right. He also plants with his inner foot first.

I'll figure out what's more comfortable for me in terms of the walk-up and work on this stuff.

 

[pjsb1]

Alright I found out that the forehand problem would have been easy to see if I had bothered recording from behind a few times and posted those on here. I was reaching too far behind my head with the disc and for some reason, I subconsciously figured out that if I raised my arm higher I physically couldn't hold the disc directly behind my head. I started holding the disc out away from me and I (mostly) fixed the problem.

https://youtu.be/mdKWsx_lWWw

It was a little muddy today so I took small steps, maybe that could be why my off-arm timing was off.

Also, the backhand feels absolutely amazing right now; keeping my weight ahead of the foot I'm standing on was a huge gamechanger. It finally feels like it did back in January of this year when I was doing the hershyzer drill throws from a standstill stance, except now I'm doing it in a run up with better posture. (I didn't record any backhands today due to the mud)

 

[sidewinder22]

I think you have too much slack and lag - lack of external shoulder rotation in backswing. This is front foot strike, Rick is well into his throw already.

 

[pjsb1]

Definitely seems like I lost some external shoulder rotation when I was making sure to keep the disc out away from my body/head. Thanks for the advice, I'll work on keeping the shoulder externally rotated. It seems like if I relax my shoulders and stand tall then I can end up with my disc behind my head if I rotate my shoulder externally. However, if I keep my shoulders forward and somewhat hunched then I am physically incapable of getting the disc behind my head while rotating my shoulder externally. Definitely excited to play around with this tomorrow.

 

[pjsb1]

Ok I've looked back at some old advice I was given (by Schusterick, in my first post) and I realized that on my backhand I had my upper body way ahead of my lower body so that when I would push off my back leg and I wasn't moving my whole body into the throw together. I would just let the momentum of the run-up move my body into the throw and it wasn't synced with my lower body. This would explain why last year (late 2020 actually...) for a short time I had success throwing from feet together. I would naturally keep my whole body over my left leg until I planted, then I would drive off the back leg/use my hips and finally, I'd drive the elbow.

For forehands, I realized that my throwing shoulder should make as wide an arc as possible, so I should keep it as far away from my body as I can. This wide arc would give more space for my arm to accelerate, and it would also explain how someone like Dylan Horst can reach back up and then instantly when he plants his arm comes directly to the side. By simultaneously doing a "pulling down" motion with your arm but also swinging your shoulder as wide as you can you're accelerating your arm using the sudden whip from your hip/shoulder separation and the plant. That instant that he's able to get his arm from up to the side is his instant acceleration into the throw.


The ground was not ideal for throwing backhands but I wanted to record a video badly:
https://youtu.be/tujyfZQY6N0

Dylan slow-mo forehand for reference: https://youtu.be/w5w_Ue3HRhw

 

[sidewinder22]

Ok I've looked back at some old advice I was given (by Schusterick, in my first post) and I realized that on my backhand I had my upper body way ahead of my lower body so that when I would push off my back leg and I wasn't moving my whole body into the throw together. I would just let the momentum of the run-up move my body into the throw and it wasn't synced with my lower body. This would explain why last year (late 2020 actually...) for a short time I had success throwing from feet together. I would naturally keep my whole body over my left leg until I planted, then I would drive off the back leg/use my hips and finally, I'd drive the elbow.

Not sure I agree with that. Throughout your x-step your upper body is leaning back behind your lower body and so you tip over back and forth, so it's all relative to when/where and really the byproduct from poor balance and posture from the beginning. I do agree with Will that your hips are open when you plant and you are still doing that, so your hips are actually too far ahead rotationally, or never getting back properly - you aren't getting the Buttwipe move either bh or fh("The Hips" thread in post 2).

1st pic - I really don't like the knee bend/butt out there in the setup. Note how Eagle is just standing straight up and relaxed, zero knee bend until movement begins with the CoG tipping forward.
2nd pic - Note how your CoG is further back landing on right foot.
3rd pic - Note how your CoG is behind your right foot leaving left foot and right knee is pigeon toed or buckled inward.

1st pic - Note how your CoG is behind your right foot and your right hip is behind your right knee. Note how Dylan's CoG is leveraged forward on the right foot and his right hip is buttwiped ahead of the knee.
2nd pic - Note how you have over-rotated and collapsed the front knee past the ankle.

 

[pjsb1]

Image gallery of people who throw far and me.
https://imgur.com/a/0vTgWO6

I think I may have thrown myself off looking at this stage of the throw? I'm not sure. If I'm not doing the buttwipe on backhand then I truly don't understand how to do it. The ground was a little muddy so I my plant foot was slipping out from under me without bracing fully but it still looked like my left butt cheek was pushed back and then my right after my heel comes down. To be honest this is the most confused I've ever been from your advice, when I changed to keeping my upper body more over my back leg I became so much more accurate and didn't lose any distance. I wasn't expecting this response.

I threw some more today but I feel like I'm just missing something fundamental with the hips? I really don't know. The advice about keeping my COG forward is really easy to do, but all it does it make me inaccurate so I'm not sure what I should be working on.

The forehand stuff all makes sense to me, I got a little sloppy while I was focusing on my upper body.

 

[pjsb1]

Is this what you're talking about with the early hips? I turn my left hip in before my heel is fully on the ground?

https://imgur.com/a/Jx41CN1

 

[sidewinder22]

Is this what you're talking about with the early hips? I turn my left hip in before my heel is fully on the ground?

https://imgur.com/a/Jx41CN1

Yes, because it's not turning back deeper or being pushed back deeper as you get into weird positions from being off balance.

Your first step is reaching out ahead of your CoG fall and leg drive. It looks like you are stomping on the brake pedal instead of trying to flow into the next step. Most people don't walk that way.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mIq15Ra3X0#t=3m55s

 

[pjsb1]

Man, I'm still really confused by this, I don't know what weird positions in my throw you're talking about that are hurting my ability to use my hips. I've just tried to work on my walking in this video and tried not to let my left hip go too early. My off arm got wacky but that's just what happens sometimes.

https://youtu.be/o9NQB8n1aaw

Here's my forehand, cleaned up the lower body some and tried to work on making my reachback not so extreme. My arm swing still seems off somehow, like I'm actively bringing my shoulder in(?) as I throw instead of letting my arm whip.

https://youtu.be/jBNTSR9XBQo

I've grabbed a still of myself and Dylan throwing forehand where I have brought shoulder forward/in/closed (I'm not sure what to call it) and Dylan has kept his shoulder back https://imgur.com/a/0QrFp0t

 

[sidewinder22]

IIRC you said you are not naturally pigeon toed, but you keep doing it, so IDK seems weird to me.

FH looks like you are trying to lead with the elbow too much and disconnected from rest of body, front leg still collapses.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2eWfwpahfk#t=5m33s

1. Note your left leg is pigeon toed, Simon's knees are pointed out like ballerina.
2. Note your left foot plants too backward and your right foot leads the stride instead of CoG. Note how Simon is leveraged inside his rear foot more lateral.
3. Note how backward you plant so your right hip lands over/past your knee, and your backswing goes kind of high. Simon is braced up more laterally - hip behind knee behind ankle like a running back that wants to reverse direction.
4. Note your front foot is rolled over with all the pressure jammed up into it. Simon has pivoted foot releasing pressure.
5. Note how you rise straight up in finish and your right shoulder(and heel) has backed away and left shoulder stops short. Simon flows through pivoting effortlessly into the bowling finish.

 

[lostDoughnut]

additional info**


because of the position of your left foot shown below your body cant coil (you are not able to build as much tension) as much as we would like (redline kinda shows a better position of where the toes could point)


link below will show you a drill that will also get you a feeling of what being coiled feels like. and how you are loosing the tension based on where your toe is pointed

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWasFdvnGio#t=6m5s

if you do the drill you will get the feeling of being coiled up. if you do the drill and move your left foot so the toe points where the red arrow goes you will loose the feeling of being coiled up. it took me awhile to get this drill but i believe when you feel a tenseness feeling of the muscles in the area where i circled thats a part of the feeling of being coiled up correctly. if you get this tense feeling and if you pick up your left foots toe. because of the tenseness of the muscles your foot should rotate counter clockwise as it uncoils the tension in the muscles.