Painful Grip Issues

[lucasgg]

Hello, Disc Golfers!
Before I get started I'll introduce my self. I've been golfing about 4 months(seems like a year to me), living in Eastern Nebraska, USA. Call me Lucas if you wish. My uncle from Hawaii first introduced me to disc golfing. I've really enjoyed the sport, and wish (obviously) to improve. AnyWho, down to business


My maximum distance ever achieved was about 180ft. (landed me 8ft from the basket)
I've developed a hazardous and painful habit with in my grip. Right before I throw, I curl my index finger tightly around the rim of the disc, just coming into contact with the flight plate. When I release, this is the last finger to come off. I get some pretty accurate drive too. The only problem, is that afterwards it hurts like heck. Almost like a slight fracture. So, how do I break this habit? Different grip styles? Should I just keep using this and buckle down?

 

[JR]

Hi. Bosses are for 400'+ throwers. At this point you need something that does not fade hard so the disc will not drop out of air quickly. It means that at your power the speed rating is much lower than the Boss because the discs fade when they slow down below their design. In your case that would be more like putters and mids but fairway drivers are ok too like Leopards.

It is hard to say anything definitive about the cause of the pain so if rest ice and compression for say three months does not help it could be serious. Like repetitive stress syndrome. Which is a danger for new players especially. Throwing stresses the body hard and it will take time to grow muscles and tendons to take the stress.

Not knowing how hard you pinch it is hard to tell if easing up on the power leads to slipping discs or not. Most people need to pinch and use the index finger like you do to avoid slips. To be sure do you grip the vertical part of the disc with any other finger? Index finger alone is a great way to injure the index finger. Beginners should alleviate the stress by putting the middle and ring fingers at least to the vertical part of the disc. Called a rim.

It will be poor weather soon and it is best to heal yourself so that you are fine come next season.

Fast discs mask all other throwing form errors than front higher than rear of the disc and lack of spin. Overstable slow discs do mask other errors as well but also those two more than fast discs. Ideally you want something that flips a little with your best throws so it is usable and punish for mistakes. Punishment indicates a problem and when you find it you can learn how to avoid it. Posting a video helps in correcting technique errors. Everyone has them at four months of experience. It will revolutionize your game once you master the form changes. Distance too. Hopefully sparing you injuries as well.

 

[lucasgg]

Thanks for the reply. In terms of grip, I did a quick search, and started squeezing my thumb and index finger on the rim of the disc. I a fan/power grip with my index and thumb pressuring on the rim and the other 3 fingers resting on the flight plate. (Switching to a power grip with this style is easy.) I can get good release now with this style, and it's more controllable. I have 3 midranges, Retro line Claymore, Shark(of course), and a Discraft Buzz. My only fairway driver is the Leopard, and the Valkyrie(my first disc), which is pretty beat up. I also have a 171g(i think) Champion Sidewinder, but should probably stick with Leopard or Valk for now...

Definitely switching to Valk or Leopard after your comment on high speed discs masking mistakes.

 

[Star Shark]

Here's a very old video that I often show people in regards to grip...

 

[JR]

Fan grips are safe for approaches that are not that long for healthy people. Even control drives need other fingers to spread the load for safety and avoiding pain. Personally i am in a rare minority using only two fingers on the rim in warm dry weather when slips are not deadly and when they are i use a three finger power grip except on rollers and steep anhyzers a four fingered if i am unsure of how tired i am. And when tired four always.

Pinching hard is very bad distance- and fatigue wise if started early. You gain distance from loose muscles so the pinch should occur only as the disc starts to pivot between the thumb and the index finger. The command to pinch takes time to arrive so knowingly sending that command needs to happen way earlier. And when depends on the person and how they throw so about when the elbow starts to straighten when the disc is by the right pec for a right handed backhand throw.

 

[lucasgg]

My grip pains have vanished after modifying my grip. I have been experiencing grip lock lately, since I have been holding on to my discs for dear life. Must loosen up.

Quick question: What do you think about a Valkyrie for fairway driving? Frankly, I don't like the Leopard's concave feel, seems empty to me.

Let me list all my discs:
Drivers: Campion Mamba, Leopard, Flick, Vibram Ascent, Thunderbird, Viking(175g), Champion Sidewinder, Boss
Midranges: Discraft X Buzzz, Shark, Retro Line Claymore, and a Panther that I lost.
Putters: Dart, Soft Aviar, Yeti Pro Aviar

 

[lucasgg]

^I also have a star Destroyer

 

[Star Shark]

Viking wouldn't be horrible for fairway but if you really want to go around the speed 6-7 range, I'd recommend a TL or Phenom and perhaps a Rival or an Eagle

Leopards, TLs and Phenoms all are going to have issues with wind, so having a TB/Rival/Eagle type disc is a good thing.

 

[JR]

Lots of people use two fws of different stabilities. I like the Rival for a single fw mold scenario because it is straighter than the others except Leo in the end of the flight but takes winds with the best of them except that the Star Eagle X that is beefier. Note that Eagle Ls flip in winds and Eagle Xs vary a lot. Some are Firebirds but the normal kind are beefy enough in winds. Rival is the most versatile.

Valks vary immensely depending on the plastic. Dx breaks to roller quickly. Champ is the straightest and Star fades the most and flips the least. A new DX Valk flies straight enough even at your power for a straight and annied lines. Too bad they need a lot of hyzer in calm weather after the first high speed collision with a hard object. No luck with winds when new and forgetaboutit when broken in. Star handles a little wind at 400' of power so at your power the early flight should be ok but with your power it will fade out hard.

Come to think of it at your power the Rival should not flip with most winds and has decent fade so a Leo Rival pair should handle anything but overstable trick shots. But there is another notable kid on the block that could be of use if more fade than Leo is needed.

Westside Stag glides much more than the others and is between TL/Teebird and Valk in speed flipping more than Star Valk fading less. Not like Champ Valk though. There would be overlap to Valks though and the flip is likely less severe at your power. It could be long for you thanks to the huge glide and lower design speed than the Valk. Stags do not handle winds so a Rival would serve well as a choice. The Leo and the Rival are roughly as long so Stag with Rival would cover a longer distance range. At your current power the Stag would double as a distance disc which can be said of the Valk.

Stalkers fade more than the straightest Leos and are shorter and a lot safer in windy conditions. If you live in a windy area i would forget flippy discs and use the Stalker with the Rival. If winds are not an issue Stalker Stag pair or Stalker Valk is fine too. So i would go to a shop and grip each to see which shapes feel good. Ti and glo Stalkers are harder fading so avoid them for now they need more power than you have.

I loaned a Viking once so no idea but it is ok maybe too beefy for you when new.

 

[lucasgg]

Wind is definitely an issue in the Plains. Noticed the leopard's intolerance to wind, as I threw a pretty high distance drive and saw it flip a little and anhyzer at the end.
I'd probably not but another Valk due to their strange plastic and how it changes characteristics.
More posts to come...

 

[JR]

Then i would go to a store and fondle the Rival and the Stalker and see how the grip is plastic and shape wise with them vs the Viking. If you are happy with the Viking, you may not want to switch anything with it so getting a complementary disc may be all you need. If you even need another fw. Can you pull off each line easily with the Viking? I think if it is new it is fairly harshly fading for you and may not be enough for mild annies because they are likely to fade out. There the Stalker would help. The Stag is easier to flip than the Stalker but beiong faster it will fade out earlier and it is way longer more like a distance disc and for plains the wind tolerance is pitiful so i would not use it up there often.

 

[lucasgg]

My dad is currently using the Viking. It's condition is pretty pathetic, or well beat in due to it's previous owner. I believe it was my Uncle's learning driver.

 

[lucasgg]

I'm pretty interested in the Stalker. I might get the stag later, as I have a 1 well made wooded course near me.

 

[JR]

When you said plains i thought of Ohio and Texas kinds of winds. How often and how hard does the wind blow in Nebraska? The Stag has no chance in Ohio/Texas open course winds but if the wooded course is protected from the wind or the winds are not that extreme the Stag at your current power might be usable. The thing is that you should really post a video of your drives to let us see if there is something you could change to gain more power. Because the Stag would become touchy even in low wind conditions with a breakthrough in form. And that is the theme of this site :-D Good basic form will put you quickly over 300' which makes the disc behave way more flippy. Provided you have no health and flexibility issues.

The great thing about the Stalker is that it is a good stable disc that serves as a driver now and even at 400' fast driver power it is straight enough in calm conditions and ok in mild winds.

 

[lucasgg]

Windy conditions really depend on the day. Some days are mildly breezy, windy, and some are just dead calm. Usually it peaks around 3-5 mph, but can get up to 10mph if there is a strong low pressure near by. Typical back and forth weather of Nebraska... So basically I can't say for sure... It would be safer and cheaper to get a wind resistant driver in my opinion.

I'll see if i can upload some youtube videos of my drives.
BTW, I"m 15 and 5' 11", and my arms are quite long too, at 29" from index to center of shoulder joint.

 

[JR]

That is not windy at all by sea side standards so think Chicago for me. Still the Stag may not be good for you once your distance improves in those peak winds. The same goes for other Valkyries than Star. The Stalker can handle those winds for a long time in the future probably assuming more than doubled driving distance for you so if the grip is fine and you like the flight now and in the future you shall have a trusty workhorse there that you will know well in the future with added distance. You are so young that you can gain a lot of physical strength yet which naturally will help in increasing distance even if you did not change technique at all. Changing technique along with the natural strength gains will almost guaranteed give you more distance.

I know this is rude but is just have to sorry i am not trying to deball you or any other guys (it just happens, and to me too, so we have to man up and suck it and get better) but http://www.marshallstreetdiscgolf.com at least used to sell t shirts that said boy beater and now it is true not only of top women but also top girls. Let me introduce the longest throwing FPO player in Finland who took silver in the championships this year and won women's open last year: Here she is at her first Finnish championships at age 13 throwing the first toss of the video, sorry this site does not support full screen videos so you need to go to the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sd9Rozu1mjE European (MPO and Masters)and Finnish champion Ville Piippo estimated Henna's drive to be at least 430' possibly 450'. Don't feel bad she also is in Finnish national swimming team and also has medals in Finnish championships in that sport as well. When younger she also played soccer and ice hockey. In boy's teams. She is an athlete for sure.

Here is a round with her and other interesting players from this year caddied by Kai Vesa of disc golf manufacturer Prodiscus: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BeGmhkKKBKE There are two additional parts to this video as well to complete the round. I wrote the video description with more info to the linked video and also filmed the video. Hence the joke from the mods about my custom rank on this site. Not my own selection that title Not that i mind but some have commented on it that it brings a negative image in mind for those unfamiliar with the sport or me. I can live with it no prob.

You can imagine why she at your age played a major The European Open this year after you see her unleash the power on a couple of throws. She played way more aggressively at 13 but experience and the notoriety of Tali and an experienced caddy reigned in her stupendous power in many cases where former distance world record holder and other long bombers have failed. Henna is used to ripping hard around the courses she plays most often in her nome town so this course is a different experience and challenge that does bite those that take risk/reward analysis toward risk. Unless your name is McBeth. Feldberg and Jenkins out of other world champs who have played this course think it odd. Even after i told them that the course design has taken hints from USDGC course at Winthrop university. They got the course idea better after telling them that though. Yet it is not their favorite invovling luck too much in their opinions. McBeth disagreed after winning this Eurotour Finnish leg event a few years back. Not too shabby for a non major event in Finland to have also Eric McCabe out of MPO world champs playing it through the years as well as Uli and Big Jerm out of elite US players plus a host of top female players in the world.

 

[lucasgg]

Thanks for the videos. Starting to see some Will Schusterick's driving recommendations regarding the shoulders, head and arms in most of the female players. Haven't been able to practice due to rainy weather.
In regards to muscles, does having more muscle mass generally mean that you can throw farther? Or is the myth true that small muscles have better "explosive power" than larger ones?
I'll have to wait a while before buying that Stalker, but I'm pretty excited about owning my first Discraft driver besides the Flick.
Thanks for spending a good chunk of your time helping out others. We really appreciate it.

 

[Star Shark]

Throwing is not about muscle. Compare people like Paige, Simon and Avery. They all crush. Staggering variance in muscle among the 3. Throwing far is about body positions and rhythm/timing.

 

[JR]

In physics more power for the same mass means more speed. I am not medically trained or sports scientist so i have not come across anything that says that smaller muscles would be faster than larger. Throwers like javelin throwers tend to have lean biceps and maximum tendon strength. Finnish javelin thrower Tero Pitkämäki is said to have as strong tendons as humanly possible. I think it was his coach that said it in an interview.

There are different types of muscle cells. Olympic 110 m hurdler Colin Jackson gave a tissue sample of his quad after his career that challenged medical reference books. He had over 8x more percentage of the fastest cells than previous known. So a follow up research revealed that West Africans and their descendants in Jamaica have on average up to 80 % of the fastest muscle cells. Colin is British but his family comes from Jamaica. He is a world champion.

There is no denying that stature, strong legs and long arms help. Simon thros over 300' farther than Paige and Avery is taller than Simon. Simon has proportionally longer arms than Avery. Avery is muscular everywhere but especially so in upper body. Simon is lean muscular everywhere except in the legs where he is fairly bulky.

Paige and the guy who taught here world champion Eric McCabe both are small in stature and relatively lean muscle wise and push 500'. Eric might get beyond that still.

I heard top US players talk among each other at The Scandinavian Open 2010 that they all have started to train muscle power. They got even better in that in the next year.

The Stalker is a hybrid midrange/slow fairway driver. The Leopard is a little longer. Some 20' on average for me except some Star Leos fade harder and flip a degree or two less than Champs and the other Pro i have so the Star is in between the Stalker and the other Leos.

 

[lucasgg]

I finally got to visit the Disc Golf Store and got to handle some Discraft Discs. The Mantis feels slightly better than the Stalker, I have to mention, more rim to grip. The Avenger SS also felt "fuller" than the Stalker. I Didn't mind the ESP Crank either, but I gotta save that for later. TeeBird felt nice, but the Vibram Ascent(I haven't seen his disc their website, is it rare?) can easily fill the gap in terms of flight path.

Quick question. My dad is now flipping discs with his forehand throw now, and has acheived very respectable power. Any other stable fore hand discs that don't fade as much as the Star Destroyer?