PAR

[Dave242]

I don't know if I would approach it differently- that's why I'm asking if you guys that promote 4's & 5's think it helps your overall by assumingly getting a bird vs. a boge.

I will copy what I wrote above to explain why it is important to me:
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A course with thoughtful design has challenge built in for the target audience/player to achieve par, excitement & satisfaction designed in for birdies and disappointment & frustration built in for bogeys or worse. Playing courses that are targeted at ones skill level will produce those emotions....and those emotions are a huge part of why many people (the ones with at least one competitive gene in their bodies) get addicted to DG.

Now, if I play a course that is too short for me birdies are routine/boring, pars are disappointing and bogeys have nothing to do with the course punishing me and everything to do with my poor performance. Likewise, courses that are too long for me are impossible to birdie (so I miss out on that excitement) and have pars that are typically routine (shortish upshot every time). So the only emotion left is the disappointment & frustration of screwing up. To me, that is not a lot of fun since there is no upside and only downside in trying to do my best.
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One of the 5 components that I factor into my grade's (that go into my rating) for my reviews is "rewarding birdies". I do this since I am an almost prototypical Blue level player (throw maybe 20-30' shorter than average), so my hope is that similar players can benefit from what I share.

Basically, what I am saying is that if a course is too long for me it is better suited for Gold level players and if it is too short for me it is better suited for Red or White level players. So, CR-Par for that level should be used for course par.

 

[craftsman]

I get that using varied par will yield better reviews, but do you think that mentality of going for eagle/bird helps your score vs. taking a stroke or two?

 

[Dave242]

Not at all. I play every hole with a strategy to maximize my chances to score the lowest I can.

Some Gold level par 4's and 5's are rewarding for me to get just par on. I do not play them to get birdies - 3's or 4's. Here is an example: Renny Gold #11 - "Be the Disc!" video. 1,042' Gold Par-5. OB lines the fairway all the way down on both sides (fairway is around 100' wide narrowing to around 80' near the basket).

I am a Blue level player and throw 300' accurately, 340' max.....so let's say 320' is perfect play - the best I can possibly expect of myself (including throwing from the fairway). 320' x 3 throws = 960' which leaves me an easy 82' (2 throws to get up and down). This means 5 is the best I can ever realistically hope for (unless my D improves).......but the measly upshot of 82' leaves me less than thrilled. That is the math.....but in reality with the wind and the cedar trees dotting the fairway, a 5 is actually pretty satisfying to me.

If I throw safer (the smarter option) with a 300' drive and 2 275' fairway throws, that gets me to 850' and leaves me 192' to get up and down in (which I can do almost all the time). So, playing safer does not hurt my score and is still not super fun scoring wise. And finally if I get super aggressive and go for my 340' max on every throw (3 x 340' gets me to within 22'), I am almost certain to go OB at least once and not gain a thing (more likely lose a stroke).

Now, for a Gold player who can throw say 380' accurately, 2 throws gets him 760' and leaves him 282' to get up and down for a rewarding birdie 4.

Hopefully I demonstrated that the par on the sign does not dictate my strategy AND that how knowing that Par-5 is set for Gold level players can give me a good idea that the hole may not suite a Blue level player well.

 

[JesusShoes]

I understand the fight for the sign par......... but i just can't use it because of all the tournaments I play in....... sign par makes you feel better than you really are.

 

[juanbond]

....

 

[Ukeubuuke]

Sign par is a good morale booster for beginners like myself.

 

[chiefcastor]

I usually just play everything par 3 because that is what the scorecard app on my phone defaults to.

 

[Dave242]

I understand the fight for the sign par......... but i just can't use it because of all the tournaments I play in....... sign par makes you feel better than you really are.

Sign par is a good morale booster for beginners like myself.

I do not know if either of you meant this, but these posts back to back made an important point.......at least to me:

How good we feel about ourselves and our game SHOULD be based purely how we are performing (and improving) to our own standards. It "should" be this way since golf is an individual sport - one in which we can only control how we perform (if it was full-contact DG, that would be different )

BUT.......I think the psychology for many is to compare how we are doing to other players. In the case of tournament play, that comparison is very easy to make and to see. In essence what Ukeubuuke is saying is that he is comparing himself to others by the use of the Par on the sign.

So, if you are using the (flawed) psychology of feeling better about your game by comparing your score to sign par, it is very important to understand who that Par is for. Is it for a Beginner, Intermediate, Advanced, or Pro level player (Red/Green, White, Blue, or Gold level)?

The analogy would be for me (a novice ball golfer) to go to a Par-4 tee used at the US Open and feel discouraged that I can never get a 4. Makes no sense at all.

 

[craftsman]

Thanks Dave.

 

[grodney]

It's been a while since I posted this, and I'm REALLY BORED, so:

Par is a design label.

If the hole was designed to be reached in 1 shot, it is a par 3.
If the hole was designed to be reached in 2 shots*, it is a par 4.
If the hole was designed to be reached in 3 shots**, it is a par 5.

If you can't easily tell how many shots a hole was designed to be reached in, there is probably a design problem with that hole.

And, yes, it does matter which skill level the hole was designed for.


Notes:
* Or, at the player's discretion, 1 heroic*** shot.
** Or, at the player's discretion, 2 heroic*** shots.
*** "heroic" implies risky and really really good.


It's really that simple.

 

[magictenor1]

I get that using varied par will yield better reviews, but do you think that mentality of going for eagle/bird helps your score vs. taking a stroke or two?

I don't think it affects my score because I am always trying to go low. As Dave has said it is psychological. I am probably a middle of the road player. I absolutely hate to step up to a hole and know that I have no chance of getting a par. I do not like to play courses where I have no chances at birdie. That is all psychological. My score doesn't change but the idea of par ie the whole concept is about what you hypothetically should shoot. therefore Holes that almost no one can make a 3 on should not be labeled as par 3's

 

[Dave242]

It's been a while since I posted this, and I'm REALLY BORED, so:

Par is a design label.

If the hole was designed to be reached in 1 shot, it is a par 3.
If the hole was designed to be reached in 2 shots*, it is a par 4.
If the hole was designed to be reached in 3 shots**, it is a par 5.

If you can't easily tell how many shots a hole was designed to be reached in, there is probably a design problem with that hole.

And, yes, it does matter which skill level the hole was designed for.

Notes:
* Or, at the player's discretion, 1 heroic*** shot.
** Or, at the player's discretion, 2 heroic*** shots.
*** "heroic" implies risky and really really good.

It's really that simple.

Good* definition. Sounds like you are not in the Scoring Average Par (SA-Par) camp.

* Good in general, but "reached" is not specific enough - there is a big difference in being under the basket and close enough to expect to get "up and down" almost all the time. Also, there needs some specificity in defining the length each skill level is expected to be able to throw. (.....enter the CR-Par definition)

 

[grodney]

* Good in general, but "reached" is not specific enough - there is a big difference in being under the basket and close enough to expect to get "up and down" almost all the time.

Ah, yes, "reached" means that you're putting.

Not that you're in the circle.

Not that you can get up-and-down almost all the time.

But that you're putting.

It's purposely vague, but that is what is meant.

 

[deBebbler]

If a hole is 600 it is par 3. If a hole is 700-800-900-1000 then it is still a par 3. A 1000 foot hole should be 2 seperate holes and designed better.

I would rather end up being 20 over par playing every hole as a par 3 then end up being even because I was playing every hole as a 5.

Concur. And unfortunately, I often do.

Dude - you need to get with the times. .....or play the old-school easy courses and stay away from a real golfing experience.

Multi-throw holes make for so much better golf. On reachable holes, after 1-3 rounds you have it figured out exactly what you are going to do and then it is just up to having to execute. On multi-throw holes, your drive will seldom leave you with the same 2nd shot round to round. So the is so much more creativity and need for shot making skill that your basic reachable hole.

(I know, I know.....I am taking the bait of an "everything is a 3" troll).

So there is no value to placing the disc in the same place every time, huh?

And since I live directly below the Mackinac Bridge, I have no problem being labeled a Troll.

Sign par is a good morale booster for beginners like myself.

And the longer you play it, the longer you will be a beginner.

I first click the Multi-Quote reply button to make it a ["-] (bottom right corner middle button) first and then hit the Reply with Quote button ["Reply]. At this point I just move all the end quotes notations on each one of the quote sections to the end of all the quotes and put them one after each other.

I can't believe I didn't think of that! :doh:

And EVERY hole is par 3, played from pro tees. Period. How much effort are you going to put into improvement if you routinely put up a 5 under "par" playing amateur tees, and course pars?

Played doubles with our local league for the first time yesterday (I am ALWAYS working when these things are scheduled ) They asked me my level of play and I saw the looks of appreciation when I said "I always play pro tees, and usually play bogey golf." If I'm not mistaken, there was even a little respect too for the implicit "suck it if you don't like it" in my answer.

Nothing pisses off leaguers more than when a newcomer says they play 5-6 over and neglect to say that is from amature tees, course par, on a good day and then proceed to sink their partner's game.

BTW, my partner and I put up a 9 under (24 holes) and were one stroke away from $$$. We often flipped a coin to see which drive we would use, and a nice amount of my putts, fluttering like mad, went into chains.

 

[DiscJunkie]

I do not know if either of you meant this, but these posts back to back made an important point.......at least to me:

How good we feel about ourselves and our game SHOULD be based purely how we are performing (and improving) to our own standards. It "should" be this way since golf is an individual sport - one in which we can only control how we perform (if it was full-contact DG, that would be different )

BUT.......I think the psychology for many is to compare how we are doing to other players. In the case of tournament play, that comparison is very easy to make and to see. In essence what Ukeubuuke is saying is that he is comparing himself to others by the use of the Par on the sign.

So, if you are using the (flawed) psychology of feeling better about your game by comparing your score to sign par, it is very important to understand who that Par is for. Is it for a Beginner, Intermediate, Advanced, or Pro level player (Red/Green, White, Blue, or Gold level)?

The analogy would be for me (a novice ball golfer) to go to a Par-4 tee used at the US Open and feel discouraged that I can never get a 4. Makes no sense at all.

No disrespect to Dave242, but...
I don't agree with the reasoning here, if I understand it correctly.
I take for example the young Tiger Woods. He tells the story of how his father would set par for him on each hole based on his skill level. This was to keep him from becoming too discouraged and trying too play above his skill level. Tiger says that it allowed him to feel good about his progress without fretting about a posted par that was above his skill level; or conversely, becoming too satisfied about a posted par that was below his skill level.
Since I learned on a couple of courses that had very easy posted pars, it allowed me to enjoy the game immensely, while I progressed to the point where I am now (pretty much everything is a Par 3).
Now I ignore posted pars on MOST, not all, courses. But it sure helped when I was new to the game.

 

[Dave242]

They asked me my level of play and I saw the looks of appreciation when I said "I always play pro tees, and usually play bogey golf." If I'm not mistaken, there was even a little respect too for the implicit "suck it if you don't like it" in my answer.

Nothing pisses off leaguers more than when a newcomer says they play 5-6 over and neglect to say that is from amature tees, course par, on a good day and then proceed to sink their partner's game.

League play is a blast and doubles makes it even more fun. I am jealous of you that you have a good league on a good course close by.

One question: Why did you relate your ability to them in terms of par rather than just saying something like "I typically shoot a 96 on this course from the Pro tees"? (96 is 24 holes at a "bogey 4" on each)

If I was the TD (and I have indeed run TONS of league events) and the newcomer said anything in terms of par, I would immediately ask for clarification as in "what score is typical from what tees?" IMO it is the "leaguers'" fault for hosing those players' partners NOT the newcomer.

 

[Dave242]

No disrespect to Dave242, but...
I don't agree with the reasoning here, if I understand it correctly.
I take for example the young Tiger Woods. He tells the story of how his father would set par for him on each hole based on his skill level. This was to keep him from becoming too discouraged and trying too play above his skill level. Tiger says that it allowed him to feel good about his progress without fretting about a posted par that was above his skill level; or conversely, becoming too satisfied about a posted par that was below his skill level.

I think we are exactly on the same page. What Tiger's dad did was essentially tell him, "You are playing from the men's tee so ignore the listed par-4 since you are not a man yet. If you play this hole perfectly, what you will do is hit your first shot to that tree, your second shot 40 yards short of that sand trap, pitch onto the green and hole out in 2 putts. If you get a 5 you should be very pleased and I will be proud of you. If you manage to hole out with just one putt you will have a birdie 4!"

What both you and I (and Earl) are advocating is playing to one's skill level......not comparing one's self with others.

 

[Dave242]

And the longer you play it, the longer you will be a beginner.

Since I learned on a couple of courses that had very easy posted pars, it allowed me to enjoy the game immensely, while I progressed to the point where I am now (pretty much everything is a Par 3).
Now I ignore posted pars on MOST, not all, courses. But it sure helped when I was new to the game.

It is not me you are disagreeing with, it is deBebbler and the folks who think like him.

 

[deBebbler]

League play is a blast and doubles makes it even more fun. I am jealous of you that you have a good league on a good course close by.

One question: Why did you relate your ability to them in terms of par rather than just saying something like "I typically shoot a 96 on this course from the Pro tees"? (96 is 24 holes at a "bogey 4" on each)

If I was the TD (and I have indeed run TONS of league events) and the newcomer said anything in terms of par, I would immediately ask for clarification as in "what score is typical from what tees?" IMO it is the "leaguers'" fault for hosing those players' partners NOT the newcomer.

Yeah, that was me thinking faster than I type (and limited post editing time in DGCR forum ). I actually said I play pro tees, everything par 3 and play bogey golf. Even though I can't ever get there, I still know the Usual Suspects that were present and realized that math should be kept to a minimum.

I have come to like my local course more. I prefer the Old Ski Hill type courses we have around here (and really miss the defunct course at Sugar Loaf in Leelanau County) for the significant variety of holes they offer. River Road is often swampy, and it took a long time to get past that. Now I really appreciate how it can be a big wind tunnel and reliably challenge me. Also, I have always had a great close course nearby (Great Woods in Lansing, Hickory Hills & Sugar Loaf in Traverse City, etc.) After scanning the DGCR Map View of courses, and seeing areas where there is only one course close by (and it is 9 holes), I bitch much less about my Local. . . but I still end up driving often to play a ski hill.

True, about the "leaguer's fault" part, too.

 

[deBebbler]

And the longer you play it, the longer you will be a beginner.

Since I learned on a couple of courses that had very easy posted pars, it allowed me to enjoy the game immensely, while I progressed to the point where I am now (pretty much everything is a Par 3).
Now I ignore posted pars on MOST, not all, courses. But it sure helped when I was new to the game.

It is not me you are disagreeing with, it is deBebbler and the folks who think like him.

I can't see DiscJunkie disagreeing with me at all. If anything, he is reinforcing my point. He played course par as a beginner, and now ignores most posted pars since he is no longer a beginner.

In the end, you are playing against yourself. The only one standing in the way of feeling good about playing "bogey golf on Pro Par 3" is the same one standing in the way of paring those same holes....you. (well, not you personally, Dave242 )