Is it possible to give some examples? I'm just curious.
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PDGA rule update needed, need as many signatures as possible!!!
- Thread starter Pwingles
- Start date
Is it possible to give some examples? I'm just curious.
The OP said the person in question has been using a cart while playing for 4 years. How many courses is he using his cart at? Has he run into courses already where he sees navigation is impossible due to terrain/obstacles, etc.? Is he able to play 100% of courses? 50%? 5%? During his 4 years of playing, has he only been playing casual rounds? And, what does the OP mean by 'reasonable accommodations'?
In the Charlotte area, there are two 18-hole courses (out of 40+) that a cart could safely be used the entire round: Winthrop Lakefront (Rock Hill), Rotary Park (Concord). Several others could have carts used on a majority of the course - Sugaw Creek, Goat Island (Cramerton) and the Bear (Hickory), but would have no access/detours in some sections.
In the Charlotte area, there are two 18-hole courses (out of 40+) that a cart could safely be used the entire round: Winthrop Lakefront (Rock Hill), Rotary Park (Concord). Several others could have carts used on a majority of the course - Sugaw Creek, Goat Island (Cramerton) and the Bear (Hickory), but would have no access/detours in some sections.
While not a great example...Every time you see a hanging basket at a sanctioned event that requires a waiver. Or a OB with a mandatory drop zone requires a waiver. I've looked into the process and it really doesn't seem terrible - just a few extra hoops to jump through.
Waiver is the way to go IMHO so these things get evaluated on a case by case basis. I think trying to add a rule to the rule book that tries to encompass all situations pertaining to this issue is going to open a rather large Pandora's box of nonsense.
Agreed, those don't seem like good examples to me. They are for permanent course features, not people. Not quite the same thing.
I'm looking for a waiver that applies to equipment allowed to be used by a player. Ideally someone who is handicapped and the waiver applies due to medical need.
Yep. That I am not aware of but I am sure it can be done.
Jugular
Birdie Member
Do the waivers apply to players across all PDGA sanctioned events? Or are they only per event waivers. If applications need to be made for every event that is onerous. If that were the case it's an issue. I'm sure you know more than me on this matter so I'm curious to know.
I honestly don't understand the debate. It is being framed as "we shouldn't force the TD to make the call" when it should be "why don't we just allow carts for everyone dependent on park rules".
The only argument presented to prevent cart use is safety, but the parks department has already done the work on determining when a cart is safe or not. What purpose does it serve to go beyond that and prohibit carts? To take a guess, it is purely personal preference against carts. But is that really a good reason for a rule? I personally hate cart bags, and find them obnoxious. But should we ban cart bags simply because I don't like the sight of them? Disc golf is about throwing discs, right? I really don't see the method of getting to the next tee as something that matters.
The only argument presented to prevent cart use is safety, but the parks department has already done the work on determining when a cart is safe or not. What purpose does it serve to go beyond that and prohibit carts? To take a guess, it is purely personal preference against carts. But is that really a good reason for a rule? I personally hate cart bags, and find them obnoxious. But should we ban cart bags simply because I don't like the sight of them? Disc golf is about throwing discs, right? I really don't see the method of getting to the next tee as something that matters.
Stamina will always be a part of most sports, including disc golf. If all it's about is throwing discs then let me take a 15 minute break every 3 holes because I'm older and need the rest.
I think the issue is safety and were an accident to occur because the driver was trying to operate it on unsafe terrain. You don't want a TD trying to determine whether a course is safe or not for a cart to be used.
Based on my tournament experience we already get a 15 minute break EVERY hole.
Saying that stamina has any part of disc golf makes our sport even more of a joke to the world at large. Not saying disc golfer don't get winded walking in the woods, they certainly do. I just don't think we need to call attention to that fact.
The TD doesn't have to determine anything, the parks department already has.
The people that want to drive them? Who paid for the shoes that bring you from hole to hole?
This is a disc golf forum, talking about stamina here is not at all calling attention to anyone but other disc golfers. Seems like you side stepped the issue with that reply.
Someone still needs to supply carts and pay up front for them.
Well, I appreciate your respectful disagreeing.
Something like this is what I am assuming would be the change, if any
Im not sure I said that about the years playing or whatever, but I think the petition says it. At any rate, its true. He has been playing casually, and competitively for at least that long in our area. There are plenty of courses that accommodate him.
IMO, reasonable accommodations would simply mean, if it were determined by the TD that the event site was safe and able to handle the use of a golf cart terrain wise, Andre should be able to use it.
Whatever steps he would have to go thru, be it a waiver, or whatever, he would go thru those steps.
If the site of the event is deemed not safe, whether its by the TD, local gov't, property owner if private land, then fine. Hard to argue that.
The silly thing about this ordeal is that this was only brought about because 1 TD had a beef with the other and called the PDGA to get him in trouble.... the only person this will ultimately affect is Andre. Which is BS.
It does bring up a potential issue when talking about providing carts for others. I realize in this situation he provides his own, so it complicates things. At the moment, its on the host or the TD to supply carts. I feel like there could be some room for change in verbiage there. Basically a provision for an exemption for disabled people. I realize that theoretically gets tricky also with the "what is a disability" argument, the ADA has a pretty vague definition, and that doesn't make it easier.
Try playing 7 rounds of golf in 5 days at a competition like Worlds.
.....on difficult courses
.....in 100+ degree heat index
.....at 55 years old
Some of the whippersnapper 'round here might scoff, but stamina was a HUGE part of every Worlds I have played....heck even some events like Bowling Green Am's, in the pouring rain for several rounds.
The discussion is not about allowing everyone to use a cart. The discussion is about an individual that loves the game and needs cart assistance to compete in tournaments. The discussion is about the current rule and possible changes to that rule.
Far more that safety comes into play. The relevant discussion of, where the decision should be made, is part of it. Just allowing anyone who want to use a cart, the option would be fine, on a golf course with carts for everyone. I am sure nearly all parks that make carts available, they are very limited, quite pricey, carry significant liability for the park, the TD and the PDGA. It is very important to ensure fair distribution of carts and the permission to use them. As an overweight, older golfer, I am not sure I should get to use a cart.
Excuse me. You are implying that this was only reported because one player/TD had an existing "beef" with another TD. That was not necessary and does not excuse the TD from following the current PDGA rules and guidelines.
This is exactly how PDGA rules enforcement works. Players are the ones "policing" other players/TD's. Players that make complaints about rules and procedures being broken are NOT bad guys! Even if someone thinks the current rule is somehow unfair. A player has every right and actually a DUTY to point out when rules are not followed.
The player that reported this has actually brought this issue to light and it is being reviewed by the PDGA, again! So maybe he deserves credit for that instead of your scorn.
jakebake91
* Ace Member *
As one of those "whippersnappers"....
I'll admit because none of the others will want to, but even after 18 holes on a course with even decent elevation, I can feel it in my legs trying to power up on a drive. Now, I'm not a super athlete by no means. I'm the utter definition of average.
Then again.....maybe I'm past my whippersnapper age limit?? Is 29 too old???
It seems like the communication from the PDGA might not have included information about submitting a waiver as a solution to this matter. Or maybe it did and wasn't understood? Who knows?
That the crux of the matter. On a scale of 1-10 in terms of disability, this is a 10. No doubt he should be allowed a cart. We're not talking someone who's going to be making a full time living off disc golf. Good chance the money is less relevant than the thrill of competition.
The issue is about opening Pandora's Box. If this is a 10 in terms of severity, what about the person who's a 7, 8, or 9 on the scale? Or, what if another amputee wants to play but can't afford a cart? Is each TD responsible for rounding one up? What if it's a two-day event, and 3 inches of rain falls overnight, and now the course is deemed unsafe to navigate a golf cart?
Ideally, cooler heads will prevail. If someone is going to complain they lost by one stroke and/or lost out on $40 by finishing one spot lower, that's on them. You'd think there would be limited exceptions on a small scale. Or make him play amateur, therefore eliminating the monetary aspect.
