PDGATOUR - Would you support this?

[Plastic Thunder]

yup....

That was more words than I've ever heard you speak in person Eric.

 

[Discslinger12]

early 90's - we need to have top pro events! A-B-C tier structure created by PDGA
late 90's - too many A-tiers! we need to have top pro events! Supertour created by PDGA
2000's - everyone has a SuperTour! we need to have top pro events! Majors and National Tour Created by PDGA
201X's - we need to have better top events! for-profit DGPT and DGWT tours created

 

[biscoe]

I joined this site in 2010, the PDGA in 2011.

47,200 numbers had been given out between the inception of the organization, and the day my application registered in 2011.

We are in the 110,000's 8 years later.

Yet some people refuse to see the change right in front of them. McBeth doesn't make 7 figures because people don't care about pros, coverage, and tours. It's fine if that doesn't suit your fancy, but let's stop pretending like it doesn't suit the majority.

Vote with your dollars, but understand that us 20- and 30- somethings are laughing if you would pull your support for the PDGA over a couple extra bucks a month.

I joined in 1995 and there had been under 10k memberships sold at that point. So roughly 5 times that number had joined by the time you did over the course of 16 years. Since you joined it has done slightly more than double over 8 years. My old fogey math tells me we were adding players at a greater rate over the 16 years before you joined than we have over the 8 years after. Is media coverage depressing PDGA growth? (jk) Common sense tells me the whole thing has been growing pretty darn quickly both before and after.

 

[cheesethin]

Going off the given figures. The TOTAL number of members may have quintupled in the 16 years up to 2011. But that happened at a rate of 2300 new members per year. In the following 8 years, the (now larger) total number of members only doubled (ish), but it did it at a rate of 7900 new members per year.

My main point is I saw a chance to use the word quintupled - and seized that chance. [emoji16]

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

 

[Finny]

What if the PDGA took control of all the elite events, hired the best disc golf media crews, gave them long term contracts, etc, etc. All of the elite events had live coverage, guaranteed next day post coverage, etc, etc. No more diversity and potentially dividing the fan base by having to choose your favorite "media content provider". Perhaps the clear path has been here all along. They gobbled up UDisc, maybe it's time for the PDGA to step up and proclaim it's namesake as the unified central source for all things disc golf media?

Would the ams (who are probably the majority of the disc golf media viewing base) be upset if they knew a big portion of their membership was funding this? I surely wouldn't. Again..assuming we get guaranteed live coverage and next day footage of all the elite events.

If I was a betting man, I would bet the PDGA has been contemplating this. Let everyone else grow the sport, and then at some point announce they will be moving toward controlling all of the elite events. Right now PDGATOUR.com re-directs to the PDGA events page btw.

I would fully support it because I'm honestly a little fatigued from having to subscribe to multiple channels, pages, social accounts, to get my disc golf fix. I would prefer to just go to one source to get my pro disc golf coverage.

Would you support this? Would love to read more than just a yes | no response.

Mr. Fifty, I beat you to it by a month. C'mon.

https://discgolf.ultiworld.com/2019/03/21/steve-dodge-single-entity-theory-pro-disc-golf/

 

[Finny]

I joined in 1995 and there had been under 10k memberships sold at that point. So roughly 5 times that number had joined by the time you did over the course of 16 years. Since you joined it has done slightly more than double over 8 years. My old fogey math tells me we were adding players at a greater rate over the 16 years before you joined than we have over the 8 years after. Is media coverage depressing PDGA growth? (jk) Common sense tells me the whole thing has been growing pretty darn quickly both before and after.

Following this logic, the PDGA was growing fastest the second Ed Headrick signed up member #002. The growth rate was halved when Dan Roddick became #003 and continued its rapid decline from there.

Interesting that everyone knows who #001 is, I know who #003 is off the top of my head, but have not one clue who got #002.

 

[Casey 1988]

I could be wrong, but all of the stuff with DGWT/DGPT was pursued due to a lack of pdga involvement. There were the NT events, but nothing that stood on its own as a viable season long tour.

And of course a privately funded tour means the potential for money to be made.

Pdga focus was on growing membership at the time. I do agree though, it would be much more streamlined to have it all in house. But that goes back to ye olde debate of who the pdga caters to, the ams or the pros?

Before there were so many NT events the schedule, it was what is now mostly the Pro Tour events. At least events were the NT like Jonesburo Open, One in Texas, Great Lakes Open, one in Minnesota that the actual event has died off, one in California the old San Francisco Open, ECT. The NT then grew from 2003 with 10-15 events each year to a too many events in the 2010's that the Pro Tour came about in the 2010's as a result to find the top events in the NT as it was supposed to be a tour and bring them back out as a tour for the pro players. The top level Pro players did not have anything resembling a Pro tour anymore the way the early NT was.

 

[DiscFifty]

Mr. Fifty, I beat you to it by a month. C'mon.

https://discgolf.ultiworld.com/2019/03/21/steve-dodge-single-entity-theory-pro-disc-golf/

Fantastic read, thank you for bringing that to my attention!

From that same article, btw..everyone should go read it, regardless what side of the fence you are on:

"The best way to accomplish this goal is for the PDGA to buy the DGPT. This move, executed correctly, would complete the efforts toward cohesion and professionalism started by the National Tour and advanced by Dodge and Meresmaa. The PDGA would then run a 20-event professional tour for MPO and FPO players that started in Las Vegas and ended with the United States Disc Golf Championships. Each stop on this tour would feature live coverage and post-produced videos. At the outset, the PDGA would control all branding, scheduling, advertising, and content distribution for the new schedule. As the tour matured, the single entity structure would be gradually loosened. The goal, as with any successful sports leagues, would be for the PDGA to host events while media teams, spectators, and companies pay to watch, advertise, and be associated with the Pro Tour."

Not sure I agree they would need to buy the DGPT, not sure Dodge would be the guy to run things either, but the article is a great read. Thx! :clap:

However, the more this gets tossed around, the more I like the idea of the PDGATOUR and the PDGA being 2 different entities.

 

[biscoe]

Following this logic, the PDGA was growing fastest the second Ed Headrick signed up member #002. The growth rate was halved when Dan Roddick became #003 and continued its rapid decline from there.

Interesting that everyone knows who #001 is, I know who #003 is off the top of my head, but have not one clue who got #002.

True. I was really just making a tongue in cheek point about interpreting numbers. Was Stancil Johnson number 2? (edit: nope- Victor Malafronte)

 

[DavidSauls]

Before there were so many NT events the schedule, it was what is now mostly the Pro Tour events. At least events were the NT like Jonesburo Open, One in Texas, Great Lakes Open, one in Minnesota that the actual event has died off, one in California the old San Francisco Open, ECT. The NT then grew from 2003 with 10-15 events each year to a too many events in the 2010's that the Pro Tour came about in the 2010's as a result to find the top events in the NT as it was supposed to be a tour and bring them back out as a tour for the pro players. The top level Pro players did not have anything resembling a Pro tour anymore the way the early NT was.

Is that right? I don't remember the NT ever being more than a dozen or so events, never with any cohesive routing. I could be wrong; perhaps it just didn't make much of an impression on me.

Which goes with the impression I've always had: the NT was an attempt to make a tour, that people could follow with interest due to the points system and an eventual points champion. It never seemed to gain much traction in that regard; it seemed like just a collection of higher-tier events, each standing on its own.

I felt one of the drawbacks was that it is a tier below the Majors, making the points title a sot of a second-level championship.

Steve Dodge is trying the same goal, but with points qualifying for an end-of-the-season championship, with greater effort to make it a spectator sport.

Between them, they've managed to stitch together a tour, inasmuch as it gives players a sensible sequence of events. They all still seem to be stand-alone events, though. I don't see or hear much talk about who's leading the points race in either.

 

[JC17393]

Is that right? I don't remember the NT ever being more than a dozen or so events, never with any cohesive routing. I could be wrong; perhaps it just didn't make much of an impression on me.

No, it's not entirely right, which is right in line with Casey's fantasy world. The NT began in 2003 as an 11 event "tour". The schedule (w/majors) was as follows:
La Mirada CA (Golden State Classic)
one week off
Phoenix AZ (Memorial)
one week off
San Saba TX (World Doubles)
one week off
Melbourne FL (Melbourne Open)
three weeks off
Gaithersburg MD (Seneca Creek Soiree)
two weeks off
Bowling Green KY (Bowling Green Open)
one week off
Augusta GA (Hall of Fame Classic)
two weeks off
Ann Arbor MI (DGLO)
Columbus OH (Hambrick)
Madison WI (Mad City Open)
Minneapolis, MI (Majestic)
Kansas City, MO (KC Wide Open)
three weeks off
Flagstaff AZ (Pro Worlds)
two months off
Rock Hill SC (USDGC)

In 2004, it was 11 (add Masters Cup, WACO, and Dogwood Crosstown Classic...drop Seneca, HOFC, and Mad City)
In 2005, it was 14 (add HOFC, Des Moines, Warwick NY, and BSF...drop Majestic).
In 2006, it was 11 (add TX States...drop WACO, Des Moines, HOFC, Dogwood)
In 2007, it was 11 (add Toronto, HOFC, Sugarbush VT...drop Melbourne, Warwick, TX States)
In 2008, it was 9 (add Tulsa, Majestic, Maple Hill...drop BSF, Toronto, HOFC, DGLO, Sugarbush)
In 2009, it was 9 (add BSF, Pawhuska OK, Atlanta, Des Moines...drop Tulsa, Bowling Green, La Mirada, KC Wide Open)
In 2010, it was 9 (add Ocala FL, Charlotte, Palmerton PA...drop Pawhuska, Atlanta, Des Moines
In 2011, it was 9 (add TX States, Alabama, KC Wide Open, Lake Tahoe, Pittsburgh...drop Ocala FL, Charlotte, Masters Cup, Majestic, Palmerton PA)
In 2012, it was 6 (add Masters Cup...drop TX States, Alabama, Tahoe, Pittsburgh)
In 2013, it was 8 (add TX States, HOFC, DGLO...drop Hambrick)
In 2014, it was 8 (add Hambrick, Ft Steilcoom, Rochester NY...drop HOFC, DGLO, BSF)
In 2015, it was 7 (add BSF, GBO, Ledgestone, HOFC...drop TX States, KCWO, Ft Steilcoom, Hambrick, Rochester NY)
In 2016, it was 7 (add KCWO, Hambrick...drop Ledgestone, HOFC) **first year of DGPT
In 2017, it was 6 (add Vegas, Pittsburgh, HOFC...drop Memorial, KCWO, Maple Hill, Hambrick)
In 2018, it was 6 (add Delaware...drop Pittsburgh)
In 2019, it is 6 with no changes

 

[joecoin]

It's time for a new league of pros only. Separate from the PDGA.

 

[DavidSauls]

Slow day, JC?

Thanks for the research. That's more or less how I recall. Except, at least the initial year, not quite as hopscotch as I thought. I guess, outside of the last two Majors, it was set to wind up before Worlds.

Which is one of the things I've imagined when I've been off in my own fantasy planning world---some sort of major league pro tour crammed into about 4 months, a time of intense focus, with the rest of the year being a bit of an off-season. Quite impractical, I know. But the oddity we've involved in is a season stretched over 8 months or so, with a World Championship right in the middle.

 

[JC17393]

Slow day, JC?

Thanks for the research. That's more or less how I recall. Except, at least the initial year, not quite as hopscotch as I thought. I guess, outside of the last two Majors, it was set to wind up before Worlds.

Which is one of the things I've imagined when I've been off in my own fantasy planning world---some sort of major league pro tour crammed into about 4 months, a time of intense focus, with the rest of the year being a bit of an off-season. Quite impractical, I know. But the oddity we've involved in is a season stretched over 8 months or so, with a World Championship right in the middle.

No, just up earlier than I needed to be with time to kill.

I think the early years of the NT did have a bit more geographic flow to it. IIRC, year one had more than a year of planning behind it (and some extra corporate sponsors). I think in the following years, some of the events/clubs realized they couldn't sustain the efforts needed to put on a big event year after year. And even those that did couldn't really be that flexible with their dates so if they didn't fit with the flow in a given year, they were dropped (and added and dropped and added). And then there was trying to fit Worlds into the "flow" as well, which threw monkey wrenches galore. Things got progressively worse, not aided at all by a less than proactive PDGA staff (e.g. cramming the scheduling process into October and November instead of trying to do it farther in advance).

I think the tipping point was 2014 when the NT/major schedule went...

Memorial
two weeks off
TX States
seven weeks off
Masters Cup
two weeks off
Japan
one week off
Kansas City
one week off
Maple Hill
one week off
Sweden (European Masters)
one week off
Seattle (Ft Steilacoom)
one week off
Portland OR (Worlds)
one week off
Columbus OH (Hambrick)
Pittsburgh

I think it was based off that year that Dodge got the ball rolling on his tour. He had a front row seat for that scheduling nightmare since it was his tournament that made the biggest sacrifice/change for the sake of "flow". Two years later, after lobbying the PDGA to essentially turn the NT into the DGPT (and being justifiably turned down), the DGPT itself was born.

 

[DavidSauls]

That's more like the routing I remember. Or mis-routing.

 

[Finny]

True. I was really just making a tongue in cheek point about interpreting numbers. Was Stancil Johnson number 2? (edit: nope- Victor Malafronte)

I figured that was the case. I am now even more amazed that #002 went to a person even YOU don't know. What happened to Mr. Malafronte?

 

[Finny]

Two years later, after lobbying the PDGA to essentially turn the NT into the DGPT (and being justifiably turned down), the DGPT itself was born.

Great work tallying those early years. Very interesting, so thanks.

I'm curious why you say it was justifiable for the PDGA to turn down Steve's proposal? Is it because he was proposing that he run the NT?

 

[JC17393]

Great work tallying those early years. Very interesting, so thanks.

I'm curious why you say it was justifiable for the PDGA to turn down Steve's proposal? Is it because he was proposing that he run the NT?

Pretty much, yes. I believe he approached the PDGA with an offer to take over the NT. This was before the DGPT existed and his credentials were only that of a former Board member, the TD at Maple Hill, and a promoter for Vibram. So I can understand where the BOD and staff were hesitant to hand off their brand to him.

I said at the time the DGPT was announced that if it was successful, I could envision a time when it and the NT more or less merged into a unified tour. That the DGPT is basically a proof of concept model that, if it lasts and grows steadily over, say, 5-10 years, it could absorb the NT or vice versa. Since year two of the DGPT, Steve and the PDGA have worked together to coordinate the schedule to the point where things are about as good as they would be if it was a single tour. So a merger may not ever be necessary.

 

[Finny]

Fantastic read, thank you for bringing that to my attention!

From that same article, btw..everyone should go read it, regardless what side of the fence you are on:

"The best way to accomplish this goal is for the PDGA to buy the DGPT. This move, executed correctly, would complete the efforts toward cohesion and professionalism started by the National Tour and advanced by Dodge and Meresmaa. The PDGA would then run a 20-event professional tour for MPO and FPO players that started in Las Vegas and ended with the United States Disc Golf Championships. Each stop on this tour would feature live coverage and post-produced videos. At the outset, the PDGA would control all branding, scheduling, advertising, and content distribution for the new schedule. As the tour matured, the single entity structure would be gradually loosened. The goal, as with any successful sports leagues, would be for the PDGA to host events while media teams, spectators, and companies pay to watch, advertise, and be associated with the Pro Tour."

Not sure I agree they would need to buy the DGPT, not sure Dodge would be the guy to run things either, but the article is a great read. Thx! :clap:

However, the more this gets tossed around, the more I like the idea of the PDGATOUR and the PDGA being 2 different entities.

Happy to pimp my own work. To be clear, I do not believe the PDGA has one iota of interest in taking over the DGPT. (Check out my exchange with PDGA board member Michael Sullivan on the article's Facebook page.) And if I wrote the article now, I'd frame it as "take over" not "buy" the DGPT.

But the idea of separating touring pros from the PDGA that you and Mr. Coin advocate for is premature, in my mind. That's what got me onto the single entity idea. Professional touring disc golf is not ready for that yet. It's not ready to be put in the ruthless hands of the free market. Just as MLS wasn't.

The most surprising thing to me has been the vehement objection from so many to ANY of their PDGA fees being used to support a pro tour. I assumed most people who post here or read Ultiworld would support a $10 fee increase if the result was a well-run 20-event tour with quality video coverage. I was wrong.

Finally, I obviously don't agree with folks who think that grassroots growth is the only way to grow the professional tour. I think we need both top-down and bottom-up strategies.

 

[Finny]

Pretty much, yes. I believe he approached the PDGA with an offer to take over the NT. This was before the DGPT existed and his credentials were only that of a former Board member, the TD at Maple Hill, and a promoter for Vibram. So I can understand where the BOD and staff were hesitant to hand off their brand to him.

I said at the time the DGPT was announced that if it was successful, I could envision a time when it and the NT more or less merged into a unified tour. That the DGPT is basically a proof of concept model that, if it lasts and grows steadily over, say, 5-10 years, it could absorb the NT or vice versa. Since year two of the DGPT, Steve and the PDGA have worked together to coordinate the schedule to the point where things are about as good as they would be if it was a single tour. So a merger may not ever be necessary.

That makes sense, and I agree that the PDGA made the correct call. I'd still like a merger, but Dodge is going to have to pull out of this tailspin first.