Pick the most stable disc

[craftsman]

I asked the question on both threads, and including my answer, it produced less then five discs. What's the point of having a term that only refers to less then five discs out of such a large field.
For any of the brands it'll read:
very few if any stable
a handful of under
everything else, including every driver, over


As far as using innova as a reference ( or any brand excluding vibram)- those numbers are all made up. The stability scale is made up. It's simply designed to help beginners choose discs. The term stable is relitive, as is every chart.

 

[bjreagh]

Optidiscic- Abbot and Costello. Nice!

So you think it is too hot in the room. You tell somebody to turn the air up. Some people will know what you mean by setting the thermostat lower in order to make the a/c keep working, but others will hear "up" and increase the degrees which only makes it hotter.

I think we should ban any term with the word "stable" in it. I always thought stable was a place animals slept.

 

[optidiscic]

Optidiscic- Abbot and Costello. Nice!



I think we should ban any term with the word "stable" in it. I always thought stable was a place animals slept.

yes the hay and horse**** are understable and the loft and barn roof are overstable

 

[craftsman]

While we can all argue back and forth, one thing is obvious:

Those that consider the fb stable don't have confusion within our camp.

For those that believe stable = straight, it lends itself to user error when the more/less stable prefix is added.

 

[CwAlbino]

I asked the question on both threads, and including my answer, it produced less then five discs. What's the point of having a term that only refers to less then five discs out of such a large field.
For any of the brands it'll read:
very few if any stable
a handful of under
everything else, including every driver, over


As far as using innova as a reference ( or any brand excluding vibram)- those numbers are all made up. The stability scale is made up. It's simply designed to help beginners choose discs. The term stable is relitive, as is every chart.

Every disc can reach stability. For high speed drivers, that's at a very very fast speed and tons of spin. It will be stable and go straight, resisting turn and fade. If you throw a sidewinder with the perfect amount of velocity to spin ratio (advance ratio) it will go straight resisting turn and fade. The sidewinder is very easy to get too much velocity in the ratio though, and will turn. For a disc to be considered stable, it needs to have a very wide velocity zone where it is stable. A teebird is very stable, and will hold it's line. Once it beats in, it won't stay stable at higher speeds, and will start turning and becoming understable.

 

[optidiscic]

I always thought Piggy and Flippy were better terms and caused less confusion

 

[DiscChucker]

Yeah, but you're leaving out that 40% have the opposite opinion. As I said above, it's not the black and white argument both of you are making it out to be, it's a complicated set of terms that don't always have clear and unambiguous meanings.

Well, that 40% represents those who don't look at Innova's chart as the purveyor of information on their disc's stability. I don't know how much clearer it can be made when the chart shows as plain as day, "stable (straightest)."

Now if it were shown to be "overstable(straightest)" on the chart, I wouldn't be debating in this topic.

You have a point though mashnut, there are gray areas. There will certainly never be any kind of consensus on this topic. All the points have been made. It's best to just let this one die.

This is a really good thread though. It brings to light the perceptions people have of disc flight behavior.

 

[craftsman]

So now your definition is "holds it's line"?
Sounds more like my definition.....

 

[optidiscic]

http://www.innovadiscs.com/discs.html

where does it say straight on this chart?

 

[craftsman]

Let's use comets for this example.
With my flippy/stable usage, it's easy to compare em:
z is stable, x is flippy
the usage is relitive.

With the under/stable/over it gets confusing.
Would so say they are both stable?

 

[MopMan]

DAMN THIS IS A STUPID ARGUMENT! Here is your disconnect:

Camp Ignorant is confusing disc stability with stable flight. Camp Confused is failing to recognize Camp Ignorant's error.

Stability, according to Camp Ignorant, is defined by how straight a disc flies. This is a fine position to take; however, it only makes sense within the scope of one player's technique. A disc that flies stable for experienced player A will easily fly overstable for newbie B and understable for 7'2" discdemon C. Different player throwing disc = different snap put on disc = different flight path for disc. More snap will cause more turn and less fade--that's just how it works!

When comparing discs without regard to who is throwing and how the disc is being thrown, stability cannot be defined by how straight a disc flies because it will fly differently for different folks. Thus, in order for Camp Ignorant to be correct, the poll question should be phrased "Which disc flies more stable for player X?"

Camp Confused, on the other hand, has read the poll question and understood it as it is worded.


Vocabulary words from today's lesson:

Stability: ability of a disc to withstand snap without turning over

Stable Flight: flight which is characterized by flat, straight-line motion of a disc

 

[MopMan]

Additional vocabulary words for additional clarity:

Overstable Flight: flight which is dominated by low speed fade and hyzer of the disc. Caused by failure to get a disc "up to speed." For a RHBH thrower, the disc veers to the left

Understable Flight: flight which is dominated by high speed turn and anhyzer of the disc. Caused by "overpowering" a disc. For a RHBH thrower, the disc veers to the right

High Speed Turn: tendency of a disc to anhyzer during the early portion of flight while the disc is spinning at a high speed

Low Speed Fade: tendency of a disc to hyzer during the late portion of flight when the spin on the disc slows

 

[toothyfish]

stale·mate (st

l

m

t

) n.
1. A situation in which further action is blocked; a deadlock.
2. A forum thread involving stability clarification or attempting to emerge any given mid-range as supreme.

 

[toothyfish]

Stability: ability of a disc to withstand snap without turning over

Close...actually stability is the ability to withstand speed (forward velocity) with out turning over. Snap actually helps any disc to stay on it's released angle, provided it's clean (no OAT)

*******************************************

Should we introduce the concepts of true overstable vs. speed stable at this time?

 

[agent_peebody]

i like sugar on my oats

 

[craftsman]

Close...actually stability is the ability to withstand speed (forward velocity) with out turning over. Snap actually helps any disc to stay on it's released angle, provided it's clean (no OAT)

*******************************************

Should we introduce the concepts of true overstable vs. speed stable at this time?

Flick is speed stable, pred is true.

 

[toothyfish]

Flick is speed stable, pred is true.

Which means at lower speeds (300ft), the Flick is more stable than the Predator, but at high speeds, they could conceiveably reverse, especially if presented into a headwind.

Not that I can throw 500 ft to prove it.

 

[CwAlbino]

Let's use comets for this example.
With my flippy/stable usage, it's easy to compare em:
z is stable, x is flippy
the usage is relitive.

With the under/stable/over it gets confusing.
Would so say they are both stable?

No, the Z is stable, the X is slightly understable when beat in. A brand new X is stable (my new X is not flippy)

DAMN THIS IS A STUPID ARGUMENT! Here is your disconnect:

Camp Ignorant is confusing disc stability with stable flight. Camp Confused is failing to recognize Camp Ignorant's error.

Stability, according to Camp Ignorant, is defined by how straight a disc flies. This is a fine position to take; however, it only makes sense within the scope of one player's technique. A disc that flies stable for experienced player A will easily fly overstable for newbie B and understable for 7'2" discdemon C. Different player throwing disc = different snap put on disc = different flight path for disc. More snap will cause more turn and less fade--that's just how it works!

When comparing discs without regard to who is throwing and how the disc is being thrown, stability cannot be defined by how straight a disc flies because it will fly differently for different folks. Thus, in order for Camp Ignorant to be correct, the poll question should be phrased "Which disc flies more stable for player X?"

Camp Confused, on the other hand, has read the poll question and understood it as it is worded.


Vocabulary words from today's lesson:

Stability: ability of a disc to withstand snap without turning over

Stable Flight: flight which is characterized by flat, straight-line motion of a disc

Speaking of ignorant, maybe you should gain some reading comprehension, then report back to me.

Which means at lower speeds (300ft), the Flick is more stable than the Predator, but at high speeds, they could conceiveably reverse, especially if presented into a headwind.

Not that I can throw 500 ft to prove it.

I can throw flicks straight, I can't throw predators straight.

 

[HeartlessCynic]

 

[thePiRaTE]

http://www.innovadiscs.com/discs.html

where does it say straight on this chart?

DAMN THIS IS A STUPID ARGUMENT! Here is your disconnect:

Camp Ignorant is confusing disc stability with stable flight. Camp Confused is failing to recognize Camp Ignorant's error.

Stability, according to Camp Ignorant, is defined by how straight a disc flies. This is a fine position to take; however, it only makes sense within the scope of one player's technique...

Already covered - I will quote myself a second time:

http://www.innovadiscs.com/media/PDF/innova-driver-chart-web.pdf

Are Innova wrong? I've often found the above chart a useful reference, and further the 'turn' and 'fade' values great ways to express a discs flight pattern.

It must be pointed out, stability on a personal level can't be quantified on a chart generalized against only other discs. But, while erring on throwing things that end up being too much or not enough disc for us to handle, a standard such as this helps us determine which way to go to find that stability.

Stability to me is our ideal range, neither over nor under and may come at any point in the chart.

K.

It's only beating a dead horse here because new voices cover old ground.

FWIW, I am guilty of saying things like "you need something a little more stable" when stability is in fact relative to the thrower. The truth is, it's easier to break it down like that without getting too far into it when having a casual conversation, but it's wrong. For my part, I'm going to be more accurate in my phrasing in future. "You need something a little more resistant to turn". It's actually more self-evident when worded that way anyways.

K.