Reverse sandbagging

[mashnut]

Exactly, and that's compared to only $10-15 more in entry fees and what seems like much more than that given out in players' packs and payouts. I would definitely play a trophy only event at that price, but I think you'd lose a lot of the people who talk about ROI and what they're getting out of the event.

 

[cjskier]

This entry fee issue must be a regional thing. In northern california just about all events fill before the day of. And we have atleast one event a week. Certainly no reason to lower fees, if any thing we needed higher entrance fees. We definetly don't need to entice more players, especially am's.

 

[DavidSauls]

Exactly, and that's compared to only $10-15 more in entry fees and what seems like much more than that given out in players' packs and payouts. I would definitely play a trophy only event at that price, but I think you'd lose a lot of the people who talk about ROI and what they're getting out of the event.

An interesting perspective. Charge $25 and have no payout, or charge $40 and have the usual merch payout. TD or club makes about the same either way. Sort of makes the payout system seem more reasonable.

 

[Martin Dewgarita]

I'm into competing for the trophy only thing, but I don't want a standard plastic "1st place!" trophy. I want something unique, something wood turned, glass blown, personally dyed, carved, unique piece of art that I will be proud to hang on my wall.

 

[JTacoma03]

Why have scrip for the better amateurs? IMO if you want money or something worth money, play Open. All amateurs should be fine with trophy only (and entrance fees that reflect this).

Personally, I'd be fine with this as well.

However the justification for script is - not everyone wants to be a "Pro" player. In disc golf lingo we often just call it "Open", but what it is in practicality is professional vs. amateur players - and they have different mentalities and purposes for playing the game.

I know for myself, I'm definitely not going to go to Open unless I can adopt a regular tournament schedule, i.e. prioritizing disc golf tournaments above other things in my life. For that reason I'll play AM1.

By law you're supposed to be reporting these winnings anyway if you're Open...but we all know how disc golfers are with laws they don't agree with.

The idea is that with all Am prize payout removed, that the prize payout would be replaced by either a player's pack equally distributed to everyone or more preferably by a cheaper entry fee.

^ This is well said. Using what I suggested, AM2 would be a $20-25 entry always. You play for the pack and the chance at a trophy with other Intermediate level players. If you're gonna gamble on script or money, you pay a bigger entry.

This would also stop tourneys from padding pro purses with AM money, which IMHO is a shady method of pumping your own tourney.

All of the evidence indicates that players do not play better nor worse regardless whether they are playing with a group of players better or worse. However, playing with better players may help you improve if you practice what you might have learned from playing with them.

Well said. Nice post.

 

[Johnnyfats]

Call me a "reverse sandbagger" then, because next weekend I'm taking my 850 rating and diving into Intermediate. That might be better than getting called a bagger for shooting a 960 and a 953 at a tournament two weeks ago.

 

[archmage]

However the justification for script is - not everyone wants to be a "Pro" player. In disc golf lingo we often just call it "Open", but what it is in practicality is professional vs. amateur players - and they have different mentalities and purposes for playing the game.

Sure, I get it that not everyone wants to go Pro, I'm also an amateur that probably never goes Pro. But what I don't understand is why amateur disc golfers feel that they need to get something worth money when they do well in a tournament. I've competed in other sports, and got trophies and medals, never money or scrip. Why did I go to all those competitions if there was nothing to be gained out of them? Because I wanted to compete, and see if I can win. And when I did get a trophy or a medal, I felt good, and never thought that I should get money for this. That's what competition should be about - competing, not making profit. Making profit is for Pros.

But this playing for profit is so deeply ingrained in disc golf, I can see it's hard to change it even for amateurs. Maybe if PDGA changed it's payout guidelines to say that there should be no payout in amateur divisions, only trophies. Of course, some people would then make unsanctioned tournaments so that they can still play for money, but then they wouldn't get ratings for those tournaments, and for many people getting ratings also seems important. It would be interesting to see how it went, but I'm not holding my breath.

 

[DatRedDude]

I'm into competing for the trophy only thing, but I don't want a standard plastic "1st place!" trophy. I want something unique, something wood turned, glass blown, personally dyed, carved, unique piece of art that I will be proud to hang on my wall.

If the trophy is unique to that event i could get down with that. However if its a generic trophy that just says champion, I would rather have a disc that says champion on it.

 

[garublador]

Sure, I get it that not everyone wants to go Pro, I'm also an amateur that probably never goes Pro. But what I don't understand is why amateur disc golfers feel that they need to get something worth money when they do well in a tournament. I've competed in other sports, and got trophies and medals, never money or scrip. Why did I go to all those competitions if there was nothing to be gained out of them? Because I wanted to compete, and see if I can win. And when I did get a trophy or a medal, I felt good, and never thought that I should get money for this. That's what competition should be about - competing, not making profit. Making profit is for Pros.

I've been waiting for someone to explain why disc golf is so terrible compared to other activities that you have to bribe them to compete, but so far I've come up empty. Apparently running 13 miles is way more fun than playing disc golf because people will pay to do that by the hundreds with no chance of a positive ROI.

I think it will change if the powers that be start looking at actual data rather than catering to whiners. Of course people will say they want a positive ROI when asked. That doesn't mean that you'll definitely get more players that way, though. Nearly every other activity I've paid to compete in is evidence that's true. Yet in the very first tournament (for charity) I played in 5 months after I started playing I was called a sandbagger for getting second place in rec (it was the first tournament for the first place player as well and he got the same reception). I've never had that happen in any other competition, mostly because the structure of the event made sandbagging impossible.

 

[nyrblue2]

I'm into competing for the trophy only thing, but I don't want a standard plastic "1st place!" trophy. I want something unique, something wood turned, glass blown, personally dyed, carved, unique piece of art that I will be proud to hang on my wall.

We're lucky to have an amazing artist in our DG community that had made some awesome trophies for tournies (first pic - one example - he's made a bunch of different designs) and doubles league champ (second).

Check his stuff out at http://www.abezart.com/index.html

 

[DavidSauls]

I've been waiting for someone to explain why disc golf is so terrible compared to other activities that you have to bribe them to compete, but so far I've come up empty. Apparently running 13 miles is way more fun than playing disc golf because people will pay to do that by the hundreds with no chance of a positive ROI.

You'll have to keep waiting. "Bribery" is an inflammatory term. Everyone isn't getting paid to play. They're getting a players pack, which isn't uncommon in other amateur sports, including running. They're getting a chance to gamble the rest of their entry fee with the other competitors, in an organized fashion. And as a group, they're not getting paid---they're just playing for free, getting approximately their entry back in payouts.

The fact that non-payout events may have lower attendance is the result of Am payouts being the accepted norm. I wish it weren't so, but it is. It seems mostly players would rather gamble---pay a higher entry fee for a chance to win it back, plus some, than pay a lower entry fee without that chance.

That's the Ams, anyway. The Pros hope to make money, and flock to "cash added" events. But I'd hardly describe pro athletes in major sports as being "bribed to play" just because they earn money doing it.

 

[garublador]

You'll have to keep waiting. "Bribery" is an inflammatory term.

But it's accurate even if it's only a chance at getting bribed. People don't need those extra payouts in any of the other activities any of us have mentioned, but they're all at least as popular as disc golf. Why is it that disc golfers need this extra money back but no one else does? What's fundamentally different about disc golf that makes people who play it need the chance for a payout in tournaments? No one can answer that, and my guess is becasue it's just not true. If you took away that extra payout for good I predict that there would be no long term negative effect on tournament participation. I agree that there's little chance of finding out whether or not I'm right, though.

That's the Ams, anyway. The Pros hope to make money, and flock to "cash added" events. But I'd hardly describe pro athletes in major sports as being "bribed to play" just because they earn money doing it.

I'm only talking about AMs. It's obvious that pros get paid to play, but that's why they're pros. Am's don't get paid to play. That system has been proven many times over to work extremely well yet the PDGA won't adopt it.

 

[DavidSauls]

What's fundamentally different about disc golf that makes people who play it need the chance for a payout in tournaments? No one can answer that, and my guess is becasue it's just not true.

The fundamental difference is that we're in the habit of doing it. I agree with the "not true" part.

You'd be right about players coming regardless if every TD would agree to it at once, and we quit told turkey. Or if we used a time machine to go back and stop it at its inception.

I still don't see it as bribery, any more than an invitation to a kitchen poker game is bribery.

 

[JTacoma03]

Sure, I get it that not everyone wants to go Pro, I'm also an amateur that probably never goes Pro. But what I don't understand is why amateur disc golfers feel that they need to get something worth money when they do well in a tournament. I've competed in other sports, and got trophies and medals, never money or scrip. Why did I go to all those competitions if there was nothing to be gained out of them? Because I wanted to compete, and see if I can win. And when I did get a trophy or a medal, I felt good, and never thought that I should get money for this. That's what competition should be about - competing, not making profit. Making profit is for Pros.

But this playing for profit is so deeply ingrained in disc golf, I can see it's hard to change it even for amateurs. Maybe if PDGA changed it's payout guidelines to say that there should be no payout in amateur divisions, only trophies. Of course, some people would then make unsanctioned tournaments so that they can still play for money, but then they wouldn't get ratings for those tournaments, and for many people getting ratings also seems important. It would be interesting to see how it went, but I'm not holding my breath.

Oh I'm with you on all this - my idea is more of a halfway/transitory solution. I'd be fine with doing away with all payouts so long as it's coupled with a better produced tournament. Image is everything and disc golf's image sucks right now.

It's really not all that hard to do something WELL if you take time and effort (and are a decent networker, lol!). I ran an Ace Race in 2011 and it was a higher production value than some B-tiers I've been to.

 

[Horsman]

I think the Chicago and Southeastern Wisconsin area is a good model for how well offering those lower divisions can work. They get huge turnouts in all 4 am divisions and get a much higher portion of players playing in divisions appropriate to their rating. I do wish that the names would go away and we could just refer to them by their division codes like MA1 etc. I think that the rec and novice designations end up keeping people out of those divisions out of pride, and also keep some TDs from offering them out of a sense that "novice" and "recreational" players don't belong in tournaments.

Hey now dont bring illinois into this conversation. Lol. But yea here in WI we get good turn outs for almost all divisions. If its a small tourney then usually there are less open players and the am divisions are packed. This is a big reason a lot of the illinois people drive up here to play

 

[mashnut]

Check out any of the IOS tournaments and a lot of the other sanctioned tournaments around northern IL, you'll see the same things with huge novice, rec and intermediate fields.

 

[Disc Golf Live]

Flighted play is something worth trying for Ams. Ball golf events have used flighted play for years.

Number of flights determined by number of participants and optimal flight-size expectations. 60 Ams, for example, might = 3 flights. Top third plus ties, mid third, remainder. Bigger/smaller field, more/fewer flights. Prizes weighted to top flights, less lower down. Purposeful bagging is difficult as players don't know where the flight lines will be drawn, or how far up/down a particular flight they might end up in.

That's what I'd try if I ran the zoo.

 

[Mando]

Flighted play is something worth trying for Ams. Ball golf events have used flighted play for years.

Number of flights determined by number of participants and optimal flight-size expectations. 60 Ams, for example, might = 3 flights. Top third plus ties, mid third, remainder. Bigger/smaller field, more/fewer flights. Prizes weighted to top flights, less lower down. Purposeful bagging is difficult as players don't know where the flight lines will be drawn, or how far up/down a particular flight they might end up in.

That's what I'd try if I ran the zoo.

Been waiting for someone to bring this up.
Flights seem like an excellent alternative, and it seems to work well for ball golf. I would have more than 3 flights for 60 players...more like 5 if it's going to be all about the ratings (without age and gender distinctions).

 

[DavidSauls]

It would be interesting for someone to try, on an experimental basis. Like all competitive formulas, it would have benefits and drawbacks.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Been there. Done that. Long ago. Tom Monroe ran events with the flighting format back in the 80s in Florida. Makes sense in places where you don't have a reasonable way to identify player skill levels in advance.

When Gotta Go Gotta throw started in the early 90s, they ran a popular league with a $2 entry where a disc was awarded for every four who entered. The pay positions were flighted based on the number entered. For example if 32 entered, discs were awarded to those who placed something like 1, 2, 3, 9, 10, 17, 18, 25. Unless you knew you had a hot round likely to take one of the top three spots, you never knew if making or missing a putt on the last hole might move you from 9th to 8th and miss the disc or from 16th to 17th and snag one. Lots of fun and the format worked well in the earlier days of DG where there were almost no retail stores to get discs and the online DG environment was still 10 years in the future. And that's one of the key ways GGGT got their business off the ground.